035: Creating a Culture of Care and Open Conversations in Education with Dr. Sam Varano

Welcome to SEL in EDU.

Where we discuss all things social and emotional in education. I'm Krista, I'm Craig and we are your host on this journey.

This podcast is created in partnership with Pennsylvania ASCD.

All right, sel and EDU family. We are back and it is a pretty nice Friday for us today. Krista, how is your heart? What are you excited about for this weekend?

Fabulous question. Honestly, i'm excited to just be home. I've been on the road for the last four weeks. The next four weeks I get to be home and just get into a routine here and then I'm out traveling again for five weeks. This is my little bit of downtime. I'm getting reacclimated. I know you've got some self-care stuff going on and lots of work around your house and I'm hoping to do the same thing here.

All right, Yeah, The other thing that I need to make sure I do is take some allergy meds, because, as much as I love all of the blossoms, I have learned that wonderful spring experience also shows up where I'm like oh yeah, I got to take all this allergy medicine just like I can be outside, Like that I got to do. But other than that, yeah, totally excited about just hanging out in the patio. Yard is now cut. That's going to be pretty cool.

Yeah, awesome, that whole allergy thing is real. My bonus son has terrible allergies and has been struggling. We haven't introduced our speaker yet, but I'm going to have him share in about some of the things he is coming up this month. I'm thinking about how this is all related here. Our speaker is an administrator in a district next to me and then my bonus son actually goes to the school district on the other side of him, so I am really excited to introduce Dr Sam Verano.

He has been the principal of Satterton Area High School, a ninth through 12th grade school in Satterton Area School District, since January of 2004. 2004. This is one of my favorite things to have experienced, because I was just doing a little bit of a list And in my 15 years at my district I had 16 different bosses, and so to have someone like Sam and be a consistent leader has been amazing And to see that is not common And I think that's such a strength of his And so Satterton is located outside of Philadelphia, pennsylvania, and after beginning his career as a social studies teacher at Penn Ridge High School, sam spent 29 years in public education. So while at Satterton High School, he has played a role in significantly changing the organization's culture to one of continuous improvement and internal accountability. Within that cultural shift, the organization's structure has also changed, so they moved to a new facility that completely had a different grading structure, and he facilitated this whole process.

During Sam's 18 years as principal, satterton Area High School progressed from relative obscurity to US News Enrolled Reports, number 26 ranked high school in Pennsylvania and number two in the education-rich Montgomery County So that's the county that we live here in PA And they earned that distinguish, that distinguishment in 2012.

Sam was named Pennsylvania's 2011 MetLife National Association for Secondary Principles as High School Principal of the Year, and they recognized his leadership for fostering an organizational learning culture that yielded excellent programs and high student achievement. Sam has earned his BS degree and secondary ed from Penn State University and his EDD in Educational Leadership from Lehigh University, and he was an adjunct professor at Lehigh, which is where I met him, because he was one of my professors for a professional development and supervision course, and when I had an opportunity to have a class where they said you can either take a new class or you can see if you can work with a professor, i went to talk to Sam and I'm like I really learned a lot in your class. I'd like to continue to learn from you, and he graciously said yes. So welcome, sam. We're so happy to have you on the podcast and to have our SEL and UDU family experience you and all you have to share with us.

Thanks, chris. Dan Craig Happy to be here.

So I mentioned that one of the biggest pieces that was an impact for me in getting to know you was the fact that you've been in your position for 18 years And in that time you have really been able to help shift and develop a really caring culture within the high school. Can you talk to me about what that has specifically meant for you and what was maybe a first step in you going to do that?

So what it's meant for me, krista, is putting relationships first and modeling that. I don't mean to call myself a model, but that is what's always mattered the most to me are the people, whether they be the kids or the adults or the community, and those relationships happen when you get to know people and genuinely get to know people and care about each other genuinely, and the longevity that you mentioned has enabled me to do that. But I think the question we ask is where did it start? I had a really good how to be a principal education at Lehigh University And Lehigh and my classes emphasized an entry plan And I took that seriously. And one of the first things, the first thing that I did when I came to the position, is I sat down and met with every teacher. I don't think I went every staff member, totally every teacher and probably staff members like the cafeteria manager, the facilities manager, et cetera. I don't think I met with every custodian or every cafeteria worker, but every teacher and then those lead staffers, and just asked a few questions like what's important to you, what has gone well and what could we do better, and spent 10 or 15 minutes with them And that got me off to the right start of knowing a little bit about them personally and professionally, knowing their name, knowing their face. And it starts right from there And, interestingly, 18 years later, i've circled back to that, in that I'm having almost those exact same conversations with every staff member.

Now I am reaching it, going out to every staff member. I just recently put out a communication, like in the last three months, saying I'd like every staff member over the next two years I'm giving them for my own schedule sake to schedule this 10-minute meeting with me where I'm asking. The three questions I'm asking are can you tell me one thing I do that you'd like to meet and continue doing? Can you tell me something that I either don't do or don't do frequently enough that you think I should do more of? And lastly, i'm asking what can I do to make you more effective? I think that's a way to get people to give you feedback without making them feel weird about criticizing their boss, and my goal in that conversation is just to listen. So, for example, even if someone is telling me something like they're saying Sam, i wish you would do more of this, and I know I'm thinking to myself well, they're not really paying attention because I do this actually every day.

I don't say that because I want them to leave. I want them to leave feeling listened to and heard, not rebutted. So I'm about through, i haven't, i put it on them and I'll start reminding them next year. I'm checking off who I see, but I've seen 15-ish or so people already. Now I've got a lot of. We have 140 professional staff but I'll get it done And I'm learning and certainly if someone makes a recommendation and I know that can happen right away I make it happen right away so that people feel like they really are being heard and it's active. So you asked me these are just some ways that I model the importance of relationships And I'll talk a little bit more as you ask more questions.

I am getting an opportunity to learn a lot more through you, or more about you through Krista, as well as what I've been able to research. I do a light little Google search to kind of see some of the phenomenal things that you've been doing. I really appreciate when you are very hands-on, so I see that you're with young people and families and staff members and community service, so sports and beyond And I can understand why you have had such great longevity and are beloved in the community. And so I'm really curious, in the spirit of all the things that I've heard through Krista and some of the things that we see surfacing in the news around the political and sometimes the social environment, how have you been able to continue to anchor your community, especially with? you've had a longstanding belief about inclusivity and creating a welcoming environment for young people. So I'm curious what are some of the ways that you're continuing to dig into that work deeper at this point?

Good question, craig. Well, first of all, the longevity helps. I don't know that I would call myself beloved here, but I think most people trust that I'm trying to do the right thing and that we here at our school are trying to do the right thing. And the longevity helps And I'll talk more about an emphasis on vulnerability and humility later But it just means a lot when you can admit your mistakes in public. Now, hopefully those mistakes are tragic, which I don't think any have been, but when people can see that you're vulnerable over a period of time, that matters a lot, i think. But we have now had we are in second year.

One of our building goals has been to try to work with our staff and students on how we can better have peaceful and purposeful conversations about sensitive topics. And it's exactly about that politically charged environment. Because what I really believe is that if a 16-year-old kid in a classroom can't be allowed to say something that's politically charged without that becoming a federal crime or without the teacher advocating that she be heard, then the teacher let's say a student could say something like they're learning about the civil rights movement in whatever class, and the teacher a good teacher would say well, based upon today. Where do you see that the civil rights movement was successful in the 60s? And I could hear a kid say, well, racism doesn't exist today. Well, in a politically charged environment, that kid could be labeled a racist. And I mean, i've heard that comment. I've heard, i've actually even heard some people I respect label that comment as a racist comment. But we can't treat 16-year-olds like that. We need to be able to say well, tell me more as to why you would think that. And that's really a delicate skill that a teacher needs to have. First of all, they have to have the courage to say I'm going to engage to make this a learning experience. Rather than well, we can't go there. And it takes skill for the teacher to be able to say well, tell me more as to why you would think that, without the teacher then being labeled a racist.

So what I just give Craig and Krista is an example of how we're trying to coach our people through those situations rather than just avoid the whole conversation, because our society is never going to get better, and I'm not one of those dreamers who thinks that every day I come to work and I'm making a difference in society. I don't think that. But what I really do think is that if in a public school, public high school classroom, we can't try to help kids work through that and work through it, so the result isn't that someone posts something, someone Snapchat something out, that oh, we have a racist class and racist teacher. That's what we're working to avoid. If we can't start to work through that in a classroom, then where can we ever work through it? So again, our goal and we've been working through it in a number of ways We've had guest speakers in And I actually have a great recommendation for a podcast I think you'd be happy to help.

We've had speakers in et cetera that have helped us move forward to giving our teachers tools, and then we'll ask our kids questions and our leadership groups or our principal student advisory council. We'll ask the kids questions, tell me how that's going And I'll get specific. I'll say, for example, how do you feel? Do you feel silenced if you know that your opinion is different, if you're sensing that it's different from that of the teachers or the majority of the class? Do you feel like you still have a voice in that class And we are hearing from our kids that progress is being made there that they feel like they might, they would offer their opinion. Even when they're getting a sense that the teacher's opinion differs, which they always do. People can say, oh, they want the teachers need to be apolitical. That's a joke. They're human beings. So probably a little too much for your question, craig, but that's how we're trying to get at it.

No, you're spot on. No, i appreciate your authenticity and your honesty. Ha, ha, ha, ha ha.

I agree And I'm seeing some parallels here. We both went to Penn State secondary ed degree social studies, if I remember. Am I right on that? Yeah, and I've always believed that there was a quote that I had seen that if we don't talk about politics and religion and money, we don't know how to have those conversations. Then And lately our students are turning on the news and they're seeing people not being able to have respectful dialogue, to learn about the other person And to hear the experiences or how they have been socialized to have these types of thoughts or to their and especially, like you said, with our young people. They're still developing those pieces. So, having three boys of my own my older is 21, my bonus son is 17 and my middle is 18. They're all having different views politically And we've been practicing for years on like what does that look like in the home to have respectful conversation and to be able to learn and have that dialogue with each other. And because they're still learning and I've seen their, their stances shift over time as more and more happens. And I think that connecting that to what you said earlier, with where you're listening to your staff and not rebutting, is a way of modeling for the staff, what we want to see the students be able to do. And it also reminded me and I'm going to follow up with you on the podcast recommendation We just talked with Matthew K and Jen or.

Matthew K is a teacher at a charter school in Philadelphia and he wrote a book called Not Light but Fire how to have meaningful race conversations.

It is phenomenal And it was about really setting that foundation for having some disagreements and giving people space to really be heard. And, as the teacher, he's not saying or passing a judgment, but he's continuing and allowing the space for those conversations to happen. And he partnered with one of our good friends, jen or, who is an elementary teacher. They have a new book that's just coming out on focusing on what this looks like at the elementary classroom, and so I really think that you've not only touched on what it looks like to change a culture, but also how we can give space for our students to practice these essential life skills, aka social, emotional learning skills of hearing other people's perspectives really deeply, listening, authentically and you're modeling that with the staff. That I think is important and I remember you doing that in our graduate course in our classes at Lehigh, hearing all the different perspectives that these educational leaders were coming from and asking more questions to get them to see each other's viewpoints.

Glad you remember it that way, krista, because I will say that that is a major struggle for me. It was a struggle for me when I was teaching And it's a struggle for me now. That's where my longevity hurts, because people and I may have shared this with you, people It's. Sometimes it's hard for me to let a discussion go on or let people brainstorm because I'm thinking I've been down this path before and I know the answer to this. So I felt like that, at risk of sounding like a know it all, but just the experience helps me. That's one of my challenges is to let people figure stuff out for themselves. But a couple things I just want to mention.

First, i'm not basical in saying that the person we had in is a gentleman from Atlanta. His name is Mark Hayes. He's a former local news anchor on television in Atlanta And now he does. You could Google him and see in. A second, he speaks on all kinds of topics, but one is opening up yourself for discussion. He speaks from the parental lens. He speaks from you know his experience as being a news anchor in a major market Atlanta, georgia. He was awesome. He came here to speak with parents, kids and teachers, and you would. I believe he would be happy to help you in this podcaster in some way, and you can say that I sent him your way. He is an awesome human being and great speaker and the other two things that have been impacting me.

You may think that I'm late on this one, but a book that would recommend it to me a number of times that I just picked up and read in the last year is The Culture Code by Dan Coyle. I believe is the is the is the author and he's the one that gave me the idea to revisit meeting and ask, ask, teacher, the staff members. That question And the one I'm reading now is a newer one by Adam Grant. I know I used to talk about him a lot. We work. It's think again. It's all about these kind of difficult conversations and how to open your mind. It's his 19. Sorry, 1921 is 2021 book. It's really good. I'm not done it yet, but it's really good.

I'm in the middle of that one too, and I've been listening to his podcasts And I think that when he and Brené Brown and Simon Sinek get together on a podcast, if you ever want a good example of how people can respectfully disagree and perhaps come around and say, oh, now I'm seeing a new perspective. Okay, thank you for that. That to me they are. they demonstrate the epitome of being able to have those collaborative conversations where there's new learning and new takeaways. that happen as opposed to people trying to purposefully shift somebody else's mindset. It's building on top of each other.

Yeah, now, let's stop talking about authors. If anybody, ever, if anybody listens to this, and here's me setting authors, i'll never hear the end. You guys can, but I'm done with that. I just want to say these two folks have been really impactful. Mark Hayes he may be an author, but I talked about it for some other reason. But man, if someone in one of my meetings starts citing authors, i immediately say violation, violation, name dropper.

I love this. Well, okay, so here's. It won't be a name dropper, but I am going to reference something from you can drop all the names you want, chris.

I'm just done with that right I, because I like to make connections between things. that helps me learn, and I remember I've come from a coaching background as an instructional coach, and so my default is to want to collaborate with people and come to something new, and one of my big ahas in your class that we had was, through the supervision piece, was looking at that There's different models and different leadership approaches depending upon who you're working with, because that was not my experience, and especially not having 16 different leaders, like it blew my mind, and I remember us having this diagram that talked about what is.

I believe it was the motivation that somebody had and the competence or their, their capacity, and what has that looked like for you over time and are there trends? and what did that mean for you, especially with COVID happening? How has that shifted your approach to leadership When you're thinking about taking care of such a big community? And what I mean by that is that the district I'm in right next to you has a graduating class of 250. That's where my kids go or went, and right next door, i believe, your graduating class is closer to 500. Right, yeah, and so how has leadership evolved for you? and being able to meet the needs of your staff and the students and community, that's a good question.

My answer is it really hasn't, krista, or it's changed over my career, but not recently. I've been here long enough that I've hired. But most of the people who work here and by most I mean 75% of the teachers out of 140, that's a lot, that's a lot of people who I have begun with a screening interview, gone to an interview, hired you know, mentored them through their first couple years until they've gotten tenured. So I have that longevity and that experience matters to the point where I really trust people and I forgive. And I think they know me well enough that they know what my boundaries are as far as where they can take a risk and where they should ask that, even in the pandemic, i would, i would collaborate to the best of my ability to form boundaries and guidelines and then let people do their thing.

And when they make a mistake, it's it's almost never, i'm sorry, it is almost never the end of the world. We get through it. And when people make mistakes, i view that as an opportunity to build relationships with when they, when they can see that it There's not a fire, that they're not getting fired. In fact I'm probably even covering for them I you know the whole I. When something goes well, i give other, i try to give others the credit and when something goes wrong, i try to take the blame, even if I, even if I don't deserve it. That goes such a long way.

I think that I really believe people here have a lot of slack, that that they can run with things and they and they know when they make mistakes that it'll be forgiven as long as their intentions were right and they're generally right. So that leadership model of first of all, i didn't start out like that. I started out in each new job as a total micromanager. I think you have to be a micromanager in a new situation as a leader to make to a learn and be make sure things are mostly the way you want them. So once that, once I sort it through that, my first five, six, seven years, i've been able to become like this. And that model of you know, giving people autonomy, autonomy and empowering them works through all situations, including code.

Wow, i well, i'm going to, you know, ask one of our wonderful magic questions that we love to ask from time to time, and that's what do you believe at this point is your superpower?

I think recognizing talent, yep, i think that that that would be what I would say would be my superpower or my strength. I think in a very short period of time a minute or less in an interview, i can tell potential of someone or, and especially, whether they will be able to contribute to our organization. It means a lot of different things. I, i, we don't have much diversity in my school, although we have not made enough effort, we don't have. We don't have much diversity As far as of our in our staff, in our students either. We don't have much diversity as far as race We're almost all white As far as our staff. but we do have a lot of diversity of thought and kind of lifestyle and outlook, perspective, and I think that's important. So I'm not looking for just one thing, but, but I think my superpower would be being able to recognize talent and contribution to our organization.

And I'd like to ask you and extend on that, because that was another piece I remembered from your class and that this was a class for emerging school leaders and they were very concerned about hiring, and then, maybe when somebody wasn't contributing to the point where they were offering opportunities for students to grow and to learn, and so I think you used to call it the it factor or how, what do you look for and what would you recommend that that other educators look for when hiring, and what do you work with and what are those pieces that you're like we can help with this, but this is what we need.

Now, kristen, to be fair, craig just asked me what my superpower was. So that would be like Superman saying strength or whatever, right. And if you asked Superman where he gets his strength, what would his answer be? he doesn't know, right, he was born into it. He's not like Popeye, who he's spinning. So now I say I did, i awkwardly identify my superpower. And now you're trying to ask me to explain it. I'll do my best.

I am unabashedly saying tell us, I'll do my best because the part of it isn't part of a superpower that like. all right, i got X ray vision How I don't know I do.

It's different things in different situations. It's a lot has to do with interpersonal skills. Not that I have the best interpersonal skills, i know. I don't have the best body language and you're probably seeing some of that here. It's interpersonal skills, it's sincerity, it's creativity, it's effort, it's a motor, if you will, it's a sports term, but the motor It's a willingness to accept, to take, to take feedback And it's not It's one of me, not you guys early in this meeting, but it's someone who's not a name dropper or a certificate cider.

Those are all cautionary things to me. That like when, when, when people have to very soon tell me all the things they've earned and what they've done and this, that, the other thing, even in an interview, i think I just identified one of one of the pieces of superpower. It's when someone can talk about themselves without talking about themselves in terms of other people. When someone comes off, when you ask what your, what your strength and, unlike me, i just but you asked me my superpower, craig. Unlike me, i talked about myself when, when people can, when you can ask someone what their strength is or what do you do best, and they can talk about that in terms of other people, that person probably has the effect.

And so how does what you've just said link to? there was a equation you provided us that says leadership equals confidence, plus courage, plus humility. How do you still have that Magic? that's my superpower, yes, but I'm seeing all of these pieces from our conversation really coalescing and coming together in this equation.

Yeah, that's right. That's what I believe more than anything else. It's the you need to have the baseline competence, you need to have the courage to act or try or make a mistake And you have to have the humility to say sorry or I messed this up. The vulnerability that all adds up. All three of those things add up the vulnerability which I really thinking is the key piece. Now, i really do believe showing you're vulnerable without being incompetent, because you know they're always screwing up and saying you're sorry, yeah, that's nice, but at some point you got to get it right. So, yeah, that that to me is the magic mix, and it ends up being vulnerability without incompetence. What does that do that gets other people to try to do the same thing.

And I think there's also a piece of courage there that you continue to ask for feedback. Yeah, because it's. It's very easy, i feel that, to say, well, i've been doing this for this long and I know what I'm doing, versus being vulnerable and saying, what do you want me to do more of, what am I not doing enough of? and truly taking that in And, like you said earlier, going out and making that happen, not just saying I'm collecting this feedback, but that I'm acting on it, and I heard you, so there's a follow through there.

Yeah, a subtle secret follow through. Yes, like for, for example, and I'm you know, we used to have and this is a violation me even third person is violation for me but we used to have, several years ago, breakfast with Sam. So that meant that I brought in from my house a home cooked breakfast. It would be egg bake, that kind of stuff that you can with with with little effort, prepare for a lot of people, okay, and I would say, tell people just come in early this day and sit and have breakfast and I would honestly say to them you don't even need to talk to me, like you don't need to come with some agenda to talk about school. In fact, i prefer not. Let's just come and enjoy, as people would say in churches, let's enjoy some fellowship together, if you will.

Well, that is one thing that coven destroyed. I did it to two times Then. The last one that was scheduled was in 2020 when we, when we broke away from school, well, i think two teachers in these meetings that I was having having the last two or three months said you know what, sam, we missed that breakfast with Sam thing. I mean, i was able to do that immediately. I was able to spin that and have one in like two or three weeks, knowing that that would make those people feel good Wow, that I actually made that happen. That as much as I can make people know and believe and feel like they made something happen, that's. That's this part of the secret. It's making people feel empowered and valuable.

Wow, i want to lean a little bit more into this vulnerability piece. You know you there. I strongly believe I, chris, and I talk about vulnerability. you know we talked about bring it, dr Brené Brown. we talked about vulnerability.

we share pockets of vulnerability amongst ourselves and community, as well as sometimes on our podcast, and so right now I, i, am in community with so many leaders who, like, it's just a tough time to lead in this, in this environment, whether or not you're dealing with the political landscape. Sometimes it's just the social challenges and emotional challenges that our young people are facing, our staff is facing, the community is facing, and to be vulnerable as a leader, i know for me has been touching ghost, always a delicate dance, because you want to demand you know this posture that you have everything together, but to also give people an opportunity to just see you pull down the you know window shade a little bit and say, like I'm human to, i have things going on. I'm curious how have you been able to navigate that delicate dance of being vulnerable, demonstrating or sharing some of your vulnerabilities and some of the spaces and spirits you're in, but also still have to continue to lead and lead a group that hopefully will continue to honor that level of humanity that you're sharing.

Correct. For me, a lot of that opportunity is when I'm in public, and by public that could be from a faculty meeting to a presentation to ninth grade parents, where I try on purpose to show both sides of that. Like you know what I'm talking about a kid's high school experience I'm really proud of our school. I think we've got great teachers. But in public And I know we're not perfect and we and we have shortcomings that I know we'll we're happy to work through. That's always, always, always my script and in a faculty meeting gets the same way. You know we're going to try. This is try, whatever it is, and I think it's going to be a good thing. But if it doesn't work, you know we'll circle back and make it work.

I think I'm self deprecating, probably to a fault, maybe meaning to a fault, probably that it gets on people's nerves.

They might think that myself deprecation is a form of egotism. I don't know, but I do try to make fun of myself and laugh at myself as much as possible as well, as that's part of the culture around here that I'm constantly made fun of. I really believe I command a microphone pretty well in in showing that. You know, i know where we're going, here's we're going, but always talking through that implementation dip of whatever we're doing and and and, recognizing it. And then the fact that again, i don't mean to keep harping on the longevity longevity, but people have seen us mess up and recover and make it better. So there's there's trust there that that's how it's going to work out. I've been through a lot of battles and with the people And they know I'm not going to hang them out the dry on anything and they, they know, will come out better on the other end, almost always, if not always, because we'll work together and you know the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Thank you.

I was just going to say what advice would you give to a new leader, and I'm wondering if that is it right there, because, again, i wish I would have had that experience of having somebody who was ready to go with us long term, and I'd love. The people that I had the chance to work with, some of them were profoundly impactful and, like you said earlier, there was somebody who I worked with, who I made a little mistake and they're like they took could credit for it. I'm like why? why did you do that? That was a little mess up I made and he's like the buck stops with me. I've got this. I'm like whoa. Like whoa, that was totally new for me. You know, i think there's a lot of value and in people, educators, knowing that this person's with us and not looking for the next step.

Well, i've got to say that also as part of that. It is my belief that the climber is what I call them, and I don't mean to disrespect anyone. This is just how I look at it. The person who goes in education, or perhaps in any organization, but definitely in a secondary education Thank you. Assistant principal for two years, principal for three years, assistant superintendent for three years, superintendent That person, once he or she has reached the level of superintendent, has no idea of how to make a change, because every time they have no idea, they can't, they can't possibly empathize And there's no way, because what they have absolutely done is built the resume enough And you can't see real change through in two or three years.

You might start it And just when the fire starts to get hot because they built the resume I'm not saying they ran from it, that's not cowardice at all but they've moved on to the next thing and they've left it behind, usually to burn up, because the people have asked the leadership And that once that person becomes superintendent, they have no idea what change means. And unfortunately, at least around here, almost every superintendent has followed that model. And I'm saying this and maybe some of them will listen to this. I don't care, but, but it's a truth. So, having been here for for this long, i've seen so many different waves and been in the bunker with people as we're thinking, oh my goodness, this isn't going to work. Well, i, i, i cannot remember the last good, really good, big idea at my school, at our school. I can't remember the last idea that was mine And I'm. There's nothing that makes me prouder.

Thank you for sharing that. You're sharing our current reality and our geographic location. I know it might be different in other places, but that was my experience and I live in this area as well and our teachers would be like as a new person came in and they would wait you out, like seriously, you're going to leave and I'm still going to be here. So they would buck and and make it even more complicated for the person so that they wanted to go.

And so I'm just for that person who they think is going to go there think that the organizational members are thinking that any fancy plans that the person has are just to get the next job.

So they don't believe the person's genuine. And that's exactly how people thought of me here for about the first eight years, like he's just building his resume for the next job. The fact that I'm here now, that they don't ever question that and I'm I don't mean to brag about that, but that makes a huge difference. They know that any idea I have, even if it's a bad one, is not for me, for the organization, and that only happens over time. But man, is that a big difference? because they questioned and didn't trust me. They absolutely thought that when I became the high school principal at age 33. They absolutely believed I was super intended by 38. And I'm not saying I was that talented or smart, but that's what they were seeing And I was hard to get stuff done because they were always questioning. But now no one ever has that thought. That makes it so much easier.

And I am going to go back and say that I didn't know you then, but no, you now. I think that you have you had the talent and you put you have you had the ability. I know you had options and you could have done that And I don't. I'm not I'm not trying to put a negative light on people who have done that, but I do think that there's something really special to be said about walking with staff.

Well, chris, i have the greatest job. I have the greatest job in the world And, you know, my job is focused on the adults who work with the kids. And I'm large. I'm fortunate that I have such good bosses and a good school board that really keeps those same school battles about. You know, transgender and critical race theory. All those things are coming up in Saturn not maybe not so much as everywhere else, but I am kept out of that. I'm thankful, and I'm thankful for that. I'm able to work, you know, with our parents, our teachers and our kids. I am very thankful for that. It's been that way for a long time, thank you.

Yeah, Well, for those who you know have the great opportunity to listen to our podcast and have an opportunity to find inspiration and want to connect with you, What would be the best ways that they can do that?

Oh, just by email. I'm not a social media guy. It would be at my email address. You can email me here at school s for on it's outer 10 sdorg And you guys can advertise that However you want. I'm happy to help anyone These kind of conversations or when someone's getting the principal cert and they give me a call, i'm happy to read this. This helps my growth reflecting.

Thank you for your time. I'm going to I said last podcast. I'm like take us home, Craig. He's going to work on doing voiceovers.

I'm going to be back next career. Oh my, alright, that's the L and E to you, family. We have had such a great. I feel most inspired by this chat with Dr Sanperano, who has really, really, i know, got me thinking about confidence plus courage and humility. You know our key ingredients to leadership and more. There's so much more to this. So until we connect again on our next podcast, we want all of you to hold yourself. You got to take care of yourself as well as others you hold dear. Hold them real tight And we will come together as a movement of love and liberation in the SEL and EDU light. We love y'all. Y'all, take care.