039: Exploring the Integration of Artificial Intelligence in Education with Bonnie Nieves

Welcome to SEL in EDU.

Where we discuss all things social and emotional in education. I'm Krista, I'm Craig and we are your hosts on this journey.

This podcast is created in partnership with Pennsylvania ASCD. Hello, sel, in EDU family, we are so happy to be back here with you again. Thank you for tuning in to us. We know you have so many podcasts that you could be listening to and they are amazing, and you are choosing to listen to us. Craig, how are you today? What is on your heart?

So one, I mean just our guest today. I'm super excited. I got so many questions. I just want to talk about all things AI, so I'm super excited about that. But yes, however, I'll put a pause to that. Right now. It's just great to be in company and community with you both today, which is a great gift that keeps on giving, and I, you know, I'm seeing that we're experiencing this thing called spring, and I know by the time this comes out, it'll be fall, so we'll probably have leaves and stuff like that. But you know, I'm just excited about nature.

Theme in the beginnings of our podcast. It's like music or shows or what we're doing or the weather, because it's important. It for me, it sets the tone, it sets my mood on things, and so I love spring and I love fall. Yeah, I have to share one of the things in between.

I, right before I got on here, I got a text message from my older son who is at Villanova University and he is on the Formula One racing team, so they spend the whole year creating a car. He's in charge of the chassis, which I think is the frame of it, but he just sent me pictures. Today they did the big car reveal. They're going up to Michigan next month to race. Last year they got second place, so we'll see where they come in this year. But I'm like super excited and geeked out. Even though I don't quite understand all of what he does, I know it's important to him and I just love seeing something come to fruition for him, and so it kind of reminds me of the science and technology and engineering pieces, and we have a science teacher on with us who knows about all things technology, and so, craig, I'd love for you to introduce our guest, who you've known for longer than me.

All right, scladd family. So we have Bonnie Nieves, who is the author of Be Awesome what On Purpose and has nearly two decades of experience as a high school science teacher. Bonnie has a master's degree in curriculum instruction and ed leadership. Her passion is creating immersive and authentic experiences that fuel curiosity and creating student-centered, culturally-responsive learning spaces that promote equity and inclusion, and has led her to establish Educate On Purpose coaching. Bonnie is the author of Be Awesome On Purpose, using reflection as a tool to teach with C-A-R-E and assess what really matters, and ChatGBT, navigating the impact of generative AI or artificial intelligence on education theory and practice. Welcome Bonnie. Woo, woo, woo, woo woo, woo, woo.

I was gonna say woo, woo, woo too, and I was on mute. It's normal, oh woo woo. I am so excited.

Thank you, craig, that was amazing.

My gosh. So, bonnie, for our wonderful audience and who are just one mesmerized by just what they have already heard and who you are, just on the surface, curious right now about what are you most excited about in education today? What is definitely stoking your perpetual fire in the work that you do?

Oh, so there's well. The work that I do is in two places, right. I've got the classroom teacher position that I still have after all of these years and the consulting work. So they go in hand in hand, but sometimes they diverge and then eventually come back together. So right now, for classroom work, what has me excited is helping students with using AI to improve the feedback that they get from work that they submit and first suggestions on work that they do, and also for helping teachers trust AI and help kids use it effectively and to be able to see how much time they can save by using it.

But then on the other side, on the science teacher coaching side, I'm really excited about being able to help science teachers find ways to deliver more equitable assessments to students in a really stepwise way. That's really pretty formulaic for science teachers. We tend to really like the formula and, even though students can't be shouldn't be taught in a really formulaic way, when you're trying to get data in order to drive instruction, you have to have some sort of reason for doing things and a really good method and plan for how you're going to get particular pieces of information, and not just about science, but in about students identity and how their identity intersects with what they're teaching. So that's what's got me fired up this year.

I'm so excited because I was teaching high school and I do student work right now and around student voice, and I feel that that's an incredibly important piece and that everything that we do needs to be co-created with students, and to hear that you are continuing in the classroom working with students and being able to kind of move back and forth between both worlds is really inspiring.

I'm trying to figure out now, like, can I, can I sub in schools when I'm not working in other buildings or, you know, working with districts, because I miss being around kids and having those, and I use kids in quotes and and hearing regularly like their thoughts and how they're feeling about things, and I'm also a big fan of leveraging technology in in ways that can help us move forward.

And so, for people who don't know, bonnie and I this is the first time we're getting to see each other, because we met on Clubhouse, I think, like three years ago. When that came out, it was audio and it's just such an amazing way technology to connect with people that maybe your paths would not have crossed before, and so I'm forever grateful for that, and so I continue to follow your work and I'd love to hear more about specifically how you're using AI and helping the students use AI to get better feedback for themselves. Could you dig into that a little bit to help other teachers who are listening in, and how they might be able to do something similar to what you're doing to help advance learning?

Yeah, so for me it's. I mean, it's not a unique situation, but I definitely do pay attention to the way chat GPT is set up and the privacy rules and all of that. In high school I know that all of my students have their own chat GPT account, so I'm not violating their privacy like they've already violated their privacy, and I tell them don't ever tell this thing, anything about yourself personally. Don't give it any personal information or anything like that. You're just looking for feedback on work that you have done. Don't ask it to write anything for you. Ask it for feedback on what you have already written.

So writing effective prompts is a really it's a. It's a skill that needs to be developed and it's sort of like back when we first started using scientific databases and we were trying to find the right keywords to put into search for things and getting the right returns. Using chat GPT is much like that. So an easy thing to do with students is to, of course, share the rubric that you most likely have co-created with them on a project and go, have them go into chat GPT and put in the prompt. You are a high school student writing.

I just had a kid do it today, writing an article about bog turtles. The requirements of this assignment are. And then put the whichever column of the rubric you want feedback for and then how well does this work meet those expectations? And then paste the work underneath and it just tells the kid exactly, pretty much exactly, what they need to do. And in some cases I have kids say type in could you help me find resources for that? And then it will shoot out some websites or some suggested TV shows to watch or movies to watch, and so let's now multiply this, amplify this. I have 25 students. If I were to take that work home and try to read it and provide feedback, it wouldn't be as detailed and it would take me days. And this is kids doing it all at the same time. It takes three minutes for 25 kids to get all of that feedback and then just move forward and they can take it or leave it.

So I love what you're saying there and I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment and say so the teachers who are like but then how do I grade them? What is that feedback process look like? And just to be clear, I'm a big fan of process and the growth that's happening and what the students are learning. What might that look like in your classroom when, ultimately, some schools are requiring a number grade?

So this isn't saying that when the student puts in the rubric, they're not saying write a paper that meets these expectations. They're saying how well does this paper meet expectations? And it will say like say, for instance, the student that I helped to do it today His bog turtles had to talk about the extinction, or whether it was extinct, endangered or threatened, and where the threats were, what they were, what was causing them, if they were anthropogenic or natural, and one remediation measure. So when it came back it said you did a good job of explaining this, this and this. Some of your evidence is vague or weak. You should improve your evidence to support your claim that the let me, let me get it right that the threatened, that bog turtles are threatened due to human created factors.

That's making sense now, yes, thank you. And so they can continue to move forward and what they need to find. And I need to ask you, what is anthropogenic mean? I can't be the only person by friends who don't under. I'm like, wait a second, I need to learn this. What does that mean?

It means caused by people like. An anthropologist is a person who studies people.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

So, bonnie, I recognize that you have gotten I'm going to make an assumption here very comfortable with AI and and really leveraging a lot of metacognition and just having you know your scholars really think about how AI can be a support to, to the great work that you've created, or just the infrastructure of support and just this use in in in your classroom and just in the way that you are supporting other educators. I'm sure that there's some folks who may feel like this is, you know, dangerous territory or may feel a sense of anxiety because they don't know how to leverage it. So I'm really curious about what have been your conversations with educators who are on the fence about AI and its role in today's classrooms.

So my first response is that kids have been finding ways to have work written for them for a very long time, and even as far as when I my gosh, going back in all of my many years of teaching, going back and finding chunks of text that didn't look like those words came from that child's mind and copying it and pasting it onto the internet and finding an exact match at askcom. Right it's. It's not so different than that. It's just much easier and faster and maybe more widespread. But I don't even think it is. I think kids.

The real threat is that kids don't have to try at all. They could just go to chat GPT and say I need to write a research paper on bog turtles that requires this information. Write that paper and it would. So the the thing that I bring up to people who question the use of chat GPT for this is is that the when the student turns the paper in? Is that the first time you've seen it? Have you not been coaching that student through writing that and paying attention to where they're getting their sources and how they're citing them, and providing feedback at least every other day, but hopefully daily, on the work that they're doing? Because if, if the day they turn it in as a final product is the first time you've seen it and you have no idea what their process was, I would say the problem is not the chat GPT.

Wow, wow.

I think in in hearing this. It's exciting for me because you're showing students how to responsibly leverage technology. So a couple months ago we got to hear Richard Colada, who is the executive director for ISTI and ASED talk and he said you know, I was looking at all of these tech I'm not thinking of the word like what students could and cannot do with their devices and for the most part it was all don't do this. Well, if we always tell students what not to do, let's show them what they can do and how to use something responsibly and how it can help them. Because I think you're right, the more we say don't do something, they're like oh I hadn't thought about that, let me go try that now.

But there's always going to be something like our society move, continues to move. We're very fluid, and so we're going to be creating these new ways of learning and connecting with each other. Let's see how we can do it for the good of humanity, rather than trying to lock it down and then create more barriers to learning or more mismatches in relationships.

Yeah, and let's say eventually that this is going to be widely accepted, even just since November, when it started being widely used. Ai is everywhere. It's just coming out everywhere. There's apps to help teachers. There's apps to help students. There's this other thing called brainly. Oh my gosh, if there's teachers listening, just look at brainly and be aware that that's a tool your kids can get ahold of because it is cheating. In my opinion, that one is cheating. It could be used for good, but I think it would be a stretch. Sorry, brainly, if you have an argument, you can contact me. I'd love to hear your side of the story. But yeah, it's going to be widespread, it's going to be everywhere. People in the future are going to need to use it for their jobs, and it's kind of like the internet changed everything and cell phones changed everything. Ai is changing everything and now that it's for the masses, pretty much easily accessible to everyone, it's just going to change so much faster.

Does that mean we're actually in the matrix now?

Yeah Well, I'd rather be in that than on the bus with him. I'm speaking over that. It maybe feels like a little bit of both.

Yeah, I am even more curious.

You pinned an incredible read and something that I feel like it could be a really great canon for today's educators, who are really thinking differently about the way we assess. I got very quiet when I thought about the classrooms I'm in and the classrooms I've occupied as the teacher, and how have I created the systems, the structures, the rhythm, the environment where you had me think about? Is this the first time I'm seeing a paper done by a student? Is this the first time I'm really getting a sense of how a student frames their thinking? That means you have to journey with students along the way to understand a little bit more about what gets them to tick. How do they show up in the different ways that we can assess them? You've written this incredible book called Be Awesome On Purpose, using reflection as a tool to teach with C-A-R-E and assess what really matters. Could you tell us a little bit more about what C-A-R-E is and how does that show up in your practice and in the practice of educating, your training and the work you do?

Yeah, absolutely Sorry. I'm looking over here behind me to see if I can grab a copy of the book because I have favorite parts. Yeah, we want to teach with choices, authenticity, relevance and engagement. Is that my E Empowerment? Yes, Empowerment.

Thank you. No, it's hard when it's like friendly.

Yeah, and I knew engagement didn't make sense, but I say it a thousand times a day Empowerment, thank you, because actually, when I think about a 5E model, I always and in the book I say there should be a sixth E. How are we empowering students to share their learning? So you start with choices, which is actually so simple, because every teacher has either a file cabinet or a Google folder or something full of all the activities they've done, because most teachers don't throw things away Guilty, and so, instead of saying which one will I use with this group of students, don't decide. Let them decide. You have a bunch of activities that meet the same target. Let them pick the one they want, and then you're going to find that there are students that are pulling the same one, maybe because it's easiest for them, or they resonate with something, or they just like to be able to read instead of listen to it, and then you can start really curating things specific to that student. If you start early, then you can almost start making these playlists for kids where you say look, if you prefer to listen, then I heard this really cool podcast. Listen to this podcast, answer these questions and write something up for me. So yeah, choices are really easy and it takes a lot of workload off of the teacher actually, where people think that it adds and it really doesn't, and authenticity comes right from those choices.

So you see, if you're giving students, say it's, a reading about forests and they have a choice of deciduous jungle, taiga or desert, there are no desert forests, but that's the only way I can think about the top of my head. But you just give them different types of forests to research and then they choose the one that they identify with or the one that they want to learn more about. All forests are the same. There's always a decomposer, there's always a predator, there's always the same ecological interactions. Students can come together, have the same conversation, sort of like a jigsaw, and that just works for any content area. And then the relevance is making sure it applies to their life now, not Charles Darwin's life back in the 1800s. How does that matter now? How does learning about evolution matter now? And then empower kids to share it. Share it in the hallways, share it on the bulletin board in the classroom, make a podcast, film, videos, just put it out there.

I have two favorite activities that students have done to empower themselves as learners. They have held a student-led health fair at the Town Library, which was across the street from the senior center, so all of the seniors from the area came in and learned about all of these health topics that the anatomy and physiology students learned. They made activities and recipes that would help for different health conditions. It was incredibly cute and informative. And then during COVID, when that wasn't a thing that could happen anymore, we did TED talks in the auditorium. So we made the big red letter without a cardboard. So that was a little engineering project and they got up on stage, put on the big projector, invited everyone from the school, whoever had free time could come in so it didn't disrupt the schedule, and they stood there and talked about their work like professionals and they saw themselves being successful, which is way more impactful than if I just slapped an A on a paper and told them they did a good job.

I think that what you're sharing is so incredibly important because I think back to my classroom, and one. I can't say that as a 21, 22 year old, I was designing assessments that were really valid. You know, right, like, looking back, I don't trust the assessments I was giving the students that that was really learning, right. And so when you talk about a project that they're invested in, that is authentic, that's real world, and I love that. You also said that you're following along with them, because I'm also guilty of like we're starting this project in class and then it's due next Tuesday, turn it in right, and so by the time some of them I got on Tuesday, I'm like, oh, this is not what I was expecting. If I would have checked in regularly, I could have helped them course correct, you know, and given the feedback along the way. And so these were those, you know, early teaching barriers, and I'm not saying in the first year or two, I mean like the first couple years, you know, till I started to figure that out and you're increasing engagement by getting the students to co create that with you, and I think that technology really helped, at least in social studies, because I think I was talking about this earlier on another podcast.

Up until that point where we were one to one, I was the, the owner of the knowledge in the classroom. You know we could go to the library, but hopefully somebody else hadn't already signed it out or the computer lab, and I think it totally transformed education that students have access to knowledge, and so it was. You could have more choices, you could make it authentic and have an audience, and I really do think that the AI can give us. It's going to force education to change a bit and to rethink how we do teaching and learning, and I do think it's to the betterment, and so I love hearing from teachers who are practicing this and really leveraging it to support student learning in a more authentic way. I am curious now that you talk in the book to about classroom routines, and so for teachers who are new to this, you know what would you say would be a star starting point for them to think about how they can make this a routine part of their classroom to help increase that engagement and get students to find their love of learning.

So I think the most valuable thing about routines is that it creates a safe space where students never wonder what's happening, or they at least say they don't always wonder what's happening.

Right, there are, there's always days where things go off the rails. But when you think about routines, you can think about different types of routines. There's either the the daily routine, where you're every Monday, we do this every Tuesday, wednesday, thursday, friday. It's a routine and the kids know that. It could also be a daily routine where maybe Monday through Friday, there's no real routine, but you know, no matter what day of the week, when you come in the first thing you do is this, and then in the middle you do this and at the end you do that. There could also be the the semester routine, where you're basing on grades, right, and when grades are due, and I feel like a lot of teachers when they're first starting, that's such a pressure. I think teachers starting out are doing that. So we've got the beginning of the term, middle of the term, end of term, and at least it's a routine, right, but I would say that if you could just find a daily routine that works, it doesn't have to be exactly the same activity every day. But for me, what I have found is working is coming in with the goal posted for the day and it's just a bite-sized chunk goal and an intro activity. That is the only thing that I am pretty much the only thing that is teacher-centered Then some group practice, some independent practice and the exit slip. And then, when I list the activities for the day, I tell them this is the product that's due at the end of this class and it could just be the first draft of your research paper in a Google Doc. It doesn't even need to be submitted as long as it's there. And if I look, I can see that you've done some work.

Next day you come in, I'll talk a little bit, you'll work with a group, you'll work by yourself, you'll hand something in, and the group work is different every day. The independent work is different every day, but they always know if they come into class late, if they're five minutes late, it's already group work. They already know that's what's happening. So it's very comfortable. There's very little anxiety coming into my room and kids talk about it. They recognize it, they call it out, they go. It's so nice to just come in here. It's so relaxing. Well, it could be because I sage the room every morning, but it could also be that you know what to expect when you walk in. So I would say to new teachers don't be so tough on yourself, because it takes a while to find the routine that works for you. And just because that works for me doesn't mean that it will work for you.

Thank you for that. I appreciate you sharing what works for you. But then also I have heard from students in the student work that they like knowing what to expect, maybe not down to every little minor detail, but that they know there's a flow that they can count on, especially coming off of COVID and still trying to get reacclimated to life again.

What is Bonnie's superpower? Bonnie Enlightness, what is it? What do you feel at this point, is your superpower?

It's actually the more I think about my superpower, the more I know it's always been my superpower to simplify things. I take everything and break it into tiny chunks and do one piece at a time. I'm very seldom overwhelmed because I just take things one bit at a time and I really like to help other people do the same thing, and actually that kind of reminds me of Hedrick. Right you, just one small bite at a time. Maybe that's why we're such good friends.

Are you available for hire, because I need more of that in my life. Like can you like contract out your services one on one? Like okay, here's what I need to do this, I know but I'm telling you I needed to hear it.

And try chat GPT, ask it. See, these are the tasks that I need to do, and write me a suggested timeline for getting all of these things done, and make sure you incorporate time for self care, and what self care would you recommend until it works? I had to plan a diet plan for me.

And amazing Guess. What I'm going to do is work on this podcast Like the new Krista starting tomorrow.

Oh wow, bonnie, where can folks connect with you? You have a reservoir of just beautiful gyms and who you are, just how you show. But how can folks connect with you to learn more? Possibly have you talk to some other educators, lead some sessions, follow your work? Yeah, how can they connect with?

you, my primary place is Twitter, where I'm biology goddess and I'm starting to be quite a bit more active on LinkedIn. So, and I I never know how to tell people there's no handle for LinkedIn, right?

You just say find Bonnie Nieva's on LinkedIn and it's there we will add to the episode highlights and notes will have a link to your LinkedIn, so they just have to click.

And then my website, educate On Purpose, has a list of the professional developments that I offer, and I have a couple of online courses that are. Some of them are specific to science teachers, but one of them is in key increase student engagement, decrease teacher workload, which just goes through things like what kind of routine do you want to have? Do you have any activities for those things? Yet let's just put some of those things together and um, yeah, I think it's. It's three hours total and it's either free or $25. I don't remember. It's incredibly inexpensive and if someone were to email me, I'd let them get into it for free.

You are too kind, oh, oh.

Hey, I'm not making money off of this stuff. I just really love talking to people, to be honest.

Another game. Well, bonnie, we really appreciate you joining us today and I'm sure I'm fairly confident that our listeners, our SEL and EDU family, are going to just welcome a hearth of love through all of the gyms that you've shared with us today. So thank you for joining us.

Thank you for having me here. I really appreciate it.

Oh good, all right, sel and EDU family, so we're going to get out of here for the moment. However, you got to make sure you connect with the biology goddess herself and all of her queening. There's so much more like if you just look at Twitter. So much, so much, so much and more. But you can also grab and grab not just one, grab multiple copies of be awesome on purpose, using reflection as a tool to teach with care and assess what really matters. So until we we join again In heart, mind and spirit, SEL and EDU family, we want you and all that you hold dear to make sure y'all, y'all keep it tight and keep it right. And until we connect again, we just ask that you stand strong in the SEL life y'all take care of.