040: Teaching SEL through (not instead of) Academics with Mike Anderson

Welcome to SEL in EDU.

Where we discuss all things social and emotional in education. I'm Krista, I'm Craig and we are your host on this journey.

This podcast is created in partnership with Pennsylvania ASCD. All right, hey, craig and SEL in EDU family, i hope everyone's doing well. We are so excited to be back recording again. Craig, how are you today?

I'm doing pretty well. It's spring break here in Boston and the Boston Greater Regions, so I've had a chance to kind of spend some time on the deck. It's the 90s outside in the 60s, which is pretty amazing, and I have invested you know, balancing that work in self care. So I got a massage last night. I worked out three times this week, which has been great. Tomorrow I'll go from a fourth And I'm looking to do a spa this weekend. So, like this is all about self care.

Oh, i want, I want your life, i want that. I want to be on spring break and do all those things. That sounds fabulous.

You know you can take it whatever you're ready, Anything ready.

See, this is a good point And this is the the the good and the bad about doing your own business. And we're going to talk to somebody who also our guest, has his own business and how you're like, oh, i get to have whatever schedule I want. And then you're like, no, really, you're actually working more hours probably what you were thinking or expecting. So our guest I'm really excited to introduce him. I consider him a friend. He's been somebody who has jumped on line with me and talked me through and given me advice over the years, and that's something that I really appreciate about him. And we were just talking, before we hit record, about living in areas and being around people who want to take care of each other, and so our guest is Mike Anderson, and I think he is one of those people and educators who just will take care of people, and so we're excited to have him on. So Mike has been an educator now for more than 30 years. He has a pie, has been a public school teacher for 15 years and now works as a consultant providing professional learning for teachers throughout the United States and beyond.

In 2004, mike was awarded the National Milken Award Educator Award, excuse me And in 2020, he was awarded the Outstanding Educational Leader Award by New Hampshire ASCD for his work as a consultant. A bestselling author, mike has written nine nine books about great teaching and learning, and that's a lot, and I've read a lot of them. I have some of them on my phone right now. His latest book is Tackling the Motivation Crisis how to activate student learning without behavior charts, pizza parties or other hard to quit incentive systems. Welcome, mike. We're so happy to have you on our podcast and are excited to talk and learn with you.

Yeah, thank you, Krista And hello and thank you, Craig, Super psyched to be on with you.

I love this. So the two books that you have out right now, i think, are incredibly critical and just tackling the motivation crisis. I was working with teachers yesterday and they're like it's the end of the year And the kids are just their burnout. We're burnout, we're trying to keep going. And you have another book called What We Say and How We Say It Matter. Teacher Talk to Improves Student Learning and Behavior.

And I don't think I told you this, but about a month ago I was doing work for a friend and she stood up It was a district and she said I have been reading this fabulous book called What We Say and How We Say It Matter. I'm like Mike, we know him. Oh my gosh, that's awesome. And she's like you all need to get this book. It's going to change your life And so I'm excited to learn more from you about these topics. So just to, i guess, tell us what have you been focusing on and what have you been up to? I know we just saw you in Denver at the ASCD conference And what has your life been like working with schools lately?

Yeah, it has been crazy bananas busy over the last few months. I think so many teachers and so many schools are thinking about motivation and student motivation, thinking about the intersection of social and emotional skills and academic learning, which is one of the things I really support schools with. So really I have been almost nonstop in schools for the last three or four months. So as Craig was talking about getting a spa treatment and you know, sitting on the deck, i was thinking, oh, i'll get there at some point. I'm getting a relaxed stretch coming up soon. Yeah, so I've just been crazy busy in schools, in classrooms, observing teachers in action and offering feedback and sometimes teaching demonstration lessons while teachers observe And then we go and chat about it, or working with teams of teachers who have goals they've been working on all year and we've been reflecting and working on those. So super fun, super busy.

Wow. Well, i am curious how you might be stretching you know this the hard work and the engagement of educators who, like what are those conversations you're having with them and the school leaders, possibly around just school morale, school climate? you know student engagement, what has been here in your work?

Yeah, there have been a couple of things that have been coming up. Almost everywhere that I've been, and whether I'm in a K to 2 school or a high school or a middle school or just about anywhere, one is, i think, that coming out of the pandemic. I think a lot of us Jeffrey Benson wrote about this beautifully in a recent newsletter many of us thought that once we got back into schools we would all slide down into school like putting on a warm, cozy sweater, like ah, here we are, we're back, it's all going to be good, and we didn't fully anticipate how dysregulated both kids and teachers were going to be when we got back. And I think we're still reeling and recovering from that a little bit. And one of the things that I've been hearing a lot from teachers is kids don't seem as motivated as they were. Kids just seem like they're not willing to work as they are. Kids just seem like they're not willing to work as hard. But I'm actually not sure that that's actually the case. I think we might be sometimes confusing motivation with compliance, and I do think that kids might be less compliant than they were, less willing and or able to do stuff just because they're supposed to. But when I'm in classrooms where kids have authentically engaging work, where they've got choice and power and control over their learning, where they're doing cool projects that they're going to share with other kids, where they're putting on presentations for parents, i think kids super fired up and excited about learning. But I do think that kids are less able to, less willing to do the rote learning without a real purpose. And I think purpose is something I've been talking with teachers a lot about lately.

I think many of us, because we're crunched for time and maybe because it's just I don't know if it worked in the past, but we could get away with the past. We sort of launched into lessons with the what and the how. Okay, everybody learning targets on the board. Remember what we're working on, here's what we're going to do today, here's how you're going to do it. And now let's go ahead and move in.

And what I think we may be missing a good bit of is the why, helping to center for students, why what we're learning is important, or what we're going to do with the learning. I asked a sixth grade girl the other day who was working on a piece of writing. I said oh, so when you, when you finished this piece of writing, what are you going to do with it? She said turn it in and then we'll get it back and we'll take it home. And I'm not sure that's really true. I think they might have been, i think they were going to do more with it than that, but that wasn't clear in her head, and so I think that's something that I've been thinking a lot about lately with teachers is how do we make sure that kids understand purpose In a way that feels authentic and meaningful to kids, because when the purpose is there, kids are going to be fired up and they're going to learn.

I'm reflecting on a conversation I just had yesterday with a high school Spanish teacher and she sees her students for 90 days and they rotate in and out, and so she was struggling and she said you know, i'm having a really hard time with this class. And once we kept talking, it turns out it really wasn't the whole class. There were four students who were really kind of the motivators to sway another three students off task. But she still had a solid two thirds of the students who wanted to learn and found value in what was happening. And she's like what can I do? And she was talking about extrinsic motivation factors And immediately and I see this is when I wish we were still videotaping- so that you could see your eyebrows go up And my first gut was like no.

And then I needed to back up and we had a full group, good conversation, realizing that that can, i think, work with some students.

But at what point do we help students see what motivates you, what are you interested in and why did you take this class in the first place? And I think she felt like maybe it was too late in the year to have a restart, and I don't know that for me, I guess. I kind of thought, well, we need to do something, so maybe a restart's not a bad thing. How can you have a conversation with this one student the two by 10, like two minutes for 10 days and get to know the child and find out what does motivate you? What would you like to see more of in this class? How can we work together? And so I think I'm curious in your research, in your work around intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, what have you found, especially as the grades, the students get older? And I'm going to ask you your thoughts about could we have a reset at any point, like where we backtrack and like you know what as teachers, we're like let's have a do over again.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's Katie Milkman in her book called How to Change. She talks about something called the fresh start effect And she talks about when you want to make a change, when you want to have a do over. She's talking about personal habits and personal goals, but I think this would hold true in the classroom too. Pick a day that feels like a fresh start day, like a Monday is a fresh start day, or the first day of a month is a fresh start day. I think that absolutely we can do a do over at any point and sort of say to kids okay, everybody, we know this isn't working well. Like to talk honestly with kids, not to pretend like everything's fine when it's not, but to say, all right, clearly things aren't going well in this class. We need a fresh start. Let's do a reset and think about what we want to get out of this and what we're, what we're going to do. So, yeah, that's to answer that question. I think it's not too late for a restart.

As far as the motivation question goes, this is something I really dove into in the research when I was doing the book. We're working in the book tackling the motivation crisis, and it was interesting. Earlier in your lead up to the question, you said something about we want something that works, or sometimes they might work for some kids. I think part of what we need to do is we need to say what do we mean when we say something works, like if a system works, what does that mean? Does that mean that kids are authentically engaged? Does it mean that they're doing what we want them to do, which is actually more compliance than self motivation? Does it mean they're quiet, so extrinsic motivators, things that happen from the outside that we use to motivate other people in schools. That often looks like grades in the upper grades, gem jars, clip charts offering kids parties or incentives. If they do what we want, those things work.

If our goal is short term compliance, if what we're looking to do is just sort of survive, like if I were a substitute teacher in a wild class and my goal was to survive the day, i'd probably promise them a 20 minute outside recess break. If we can get through the day reasonably well, because all I'm looking to do is survive, i'm not worried. I mean I should be worried about their long term motivation, but as a substitute, i'm just trying to get through What we got to recognize, though, is, even though extrinsic motivators may buy us some short term compliance, they undermine intrinsic motivation in the long run. So if our real goal, if what we really want when something works, is for kids to feel self motivation, for kids to be able to practice skills like grit and persistence and perseverance, for kids to be genuinely and authentically interested in and engaged in learning, extrinsic motivators actually diminish those things over time, because what we say is the reason that we're going to read right now is because we might get pizza later. If we send kids that message is, a couple of things happen. One is they focus on the pizza, not the reading. The other is we're sending the message that reading must stink, because if reading didn't stink, we wouldn't have to be bribing kids to get them to do it. So there's something in psychology called signaling, where we say one thing but we're signaling something else, and so when we say to kids, if you walk quietly in the hallway, we'll get another sticker on our sticker chart and five more stickers and we have our ice cream party, we're signaling that we think kids don't want to be good for the right reasons, and that we think they can't, and so we need to control or manipulate them.

So I would recommend I don't think we should never use extrinsic motivators. We could go too far and I think sometimes they can provide a short term crutch for a kid who's really struggling with self-control or something really basic to help them kind of get through a rough patch. But we should always have an exit plan when we're using those extrinsic motivators. If we're putting kid on a point system, we should be saying our goal is that in two weeks we're starting to work away from this, because what we want is for the kid to be independent, and I see that missing all the time in schools. When we use those systems, not only do we not have an exit plan, but the system is the plan. That's. What we're doing is using a sticker system and it's not about building a kid's skills or making sure the work is awesome. So I think we need to be cautious about those.

One of the teachers who was in the group was talking about her son on the plan that they were using in the school, and it's a well-known program, but that over time it was harder and harder to earn those points as the year went on, and so the frequency of them became less and less. And I do have to share it because I know Craig has a question coming up. As you were talking about reading and pizza parties, i immediately and maybe you too did as well flashback to Pizza Hut PanPizzas. I think that that solidified my lifelong love of personal PanPizzas at Pizza.

Hut Not reading.

Yes, reading, and actually I've been devouring books like crazy this year, so I think it was a twofer for me.

It's funny because there are studies that show that what will actually happen for kids who get incentivized with pizza is that they will enjoy reading less. They'll view it as a chore because it's something I have to do if I want to get the pizza. And if you're a savvy kid, you will read short, easy books. If the more books you read, the more pizza you get. You're not necessarily going to read long, challenging books. You want to read the short, easy ones to maximize your pizza intake.

Would I be right to say then you would not have been a fan of those reading logs that I used to have to do for my kids And I'd sign them, like the day I had to turn them in we would read, but I hated filling those out as a parent.

And I'm guilty of using those reading logs myself as a way of holding kids accountable for reading. And I remember, at the end of one year, this fifth grader uber, uber honest, brian Bloom. We're cleaning out desks, we're putting stuff in backpacks. It's one of the last days of school.

He puts his reading log in and he looks at me and he sort of smiles sheepishly and he said you know, i lied on my reading journal a lot this year. I was like what, brian? what do you mean? what are you talking about? He said well, some nights I'd fall asleep with my book and I couldn't remember which pages I read, and some days I'd baseball practice and I didn't have time to read, and so I would know I would want to read more later, and I didn't always do it, and so I would just make up pages that I read and put it down. And that was that was when I thought, okay, if I'm turning Brian Bloom into a liar with this reading journal, it's time. It's time to stop this. And so that was when I stopped using those.

Yeah.

I, you know I have a lot of questions and there's attention rising in me, because I was someone who grew up loving to read And so having a tracker was an ability for me as a kid. But the pizza didn't hurt either, especially because they had like the right butter ratio on the crust and pepperoni was great. So you know I'm still a corporate fit, so so I think that you know.

Can I? can I elaborate a little bit? One of the things I say in the book is it's not that we should not do pizza parties anymore. Let's still do pizza parties, and we could even connect reading and pizza parties. But what if, instead of saying, in order to get the pizza, you have to read books? What if, instead, we said we're going to celebrate reading with a fun pizza party and we're all going to bring our favorite books and we're going to eat pizza and read together and share the books we've been reading? Like let's do a celebration of learning and of reading and have pizza there because that's awesome. But let's just the if. Then part of that whole equation that can mess with motivation It's when we say if you do this, then you get this. Now we're controlling kids and some kids resent that and some kids will like learning less because of it. So yeah, i think we should still have pizza. I'm all with you.

Yeah, one of the things. there's several things that are surfaced for me, but I have a deep curiosity around how your, how your research and continue conversations have evolved, because I realized that the least it looks like the book, your, your book came out right before or right during the pandemic, if I'm not mistaken, like twenty twenty one right And post pandemic. What we know is a number of teachers across the nation have cited that they're seeing a higher level of classroom disruptions, a higher level of acts of disrespect, and we got young people who are trying to leverage electronic devices. So we needed you know, we needed it one of kids back during the pandemic to use all types of devices to create content or do tasks in whatever form that they could demonstrate a level of learning. And now we are trying to move back to a period of engagement that may or may not be as savvy as what the world economic form is saying, because right now, for adults, in our future generations of young people, the fastest growing, highest demand skill sets are focused on artificial intelligence. So we could get into talking about, like chat, gbt, product management, because we see how much stuff we're consuming on a day to day basis and things we want to get in hand, but we also look at social media and just all I mean.

The realm of social media continues to change. I know that in classrooms that I was in last week, in a week before, i'm still seeing teachers trying to engage students with you know what I feel is like 20th century skills or tools, when kids today are very elaborate in their ability to create content, create digital storefronts and actually create, you know, quite an audience of people for following them on these different social media outlets, whether not tiktok or Instagram, twitter. I doubt they're using that, a leveraging that. But my curiosity, you know, for you is what has evolved in, i guess, your thinking and your research and, i guess, your approach? No one. You still, you know, i still feel like you are an educator every day, but I know that you're really trying to shape the mindsets and skill sets of today's teachers and leaders who are supporting them. I'm curious what may have evolved for you and your thinking and your approach and your strategies for today's teachers in schools, school leaders in schools.

Well, so you remind me of a kind of a funny, funny kind of incident from very, very early on in the pandemic, like March of 2020, early, a very good friend of mine is an elementary school principal and when schools shut down, they had a one week period where the kids were totally off. They weren't, they weren't doing school, they got a week's vacation and all of the teachers We're working on trying to figure out how to put learning on to learning platforms and I went for a run with that buddy of mine and was asking him so how are things going? He said, talking about the staff, he said there's been a lot of crying, there's been a lot of screaming and we have made more progress in technology development with our faculty in the last three days. Then we've made in the last five years. There was an urgency to having to figure out how to use online platforms. That forced people to learn how to do some of those things, and I think that continues to be.

One of the barriers to using those kinds of tools in classrooms is teachers nervousness about them. Teachers, you know many of our kids are more tech savvy than their teachers. They know how to use these new platforms, their new platforms coming out that some of the teachers haven't even heard of yet, and so I think one of the things that we can do and it's something that I've always thought we should do, it's just a different Or matter now is to be co creators of learning with our kids. I don't think a great school experience is one where the teachers have all the great ideas, the teachers do all the planning and the kids do what the teachers want. I actually think that's not a great school experience. What if teachers and kids saw themselves as co creators of work? So teachers said here's the goal, this is the content we're working on, this area of American history or we're learning about, you know, world ecosystems.

As a class, let's generate some ideas of cool ways that we could use content to play around, like what are some of the apps you're using, what are some of the online tools and you know tech devices you're using that we could play with.

As a part of this, you know we're going to put on research presentations, are going to share documents we're creating I don't know I'm making this up, you know with families and have the kids be the ones to generate some of the how we can do it kind of ideas And then have the teachers facilitating that learning right along with the kids, so that the teachers don't feel like they have to be expert in a tech platform in order to teach it to kids and then have the kids use it.

I think that ends up being a barrier for some, but if we could use the leverage, what the kids know and and do the work together, that was some of the best teaching and learning that happened in my own classroom was when I would say to a group OK, so we're working on Westward expansion in US history. What are some things you'd like to do with that? and I remember at one point I had a class who decided they wanted to make a class movie about it. The movie is not going to win any Academy Awards but, oh my gosh, we had fun making it and the kids were so invested, in part because they were the ones who came up with the idea And because it was their idea, they were willing to dive in and really work hard at it.

I.

One of the things that totally changed my mind, as a social studies teacher as well, is that until tech became accessible to the level that it is, i was the content expert, right, and so I got to just talk and share things. But that totally changed everything. Where and I don't want to focus on this part, but the tests that our students have to take about what content have you acquired? knowledge of you acquired? like we could pick up our phones and Google and if we know how to search it, we can find that, like there's really no reason for me to have things memorized anymore because I can find it. And now with, like Craig said, chat, gpt, i can have it, create something for me and then go back and analyze it and do a comparison, contrast and synthesize, or, and so it's totally changed my mindset about things, and I really liked that you were talking about the student voice piece, because I know in your most recent book, the, what we say and how we say it matters. I'm sorry, was that the? that was the most recent one, right?

That was two back.

Yeah, you had a point where you were asking students about what they, what they wanted teachers to know, where they, like at different grade levels, the students were sharing out, and it was really profound. And so, thinking about motivation and the ways that teachers are facilitating and designing learning experiences and the way that we are speaking with our students, what were some big takeaways that you learned from the students that you wish all educators and adults really knew and could internalize?

I wish I had the book in front of me because I could probably turn to the page and find the quote that I won't be able to quite get right. But I remember talking with this eighth grade girl who was so thoughtful and and she she didn't hesitate. She was like I wish teachers knew how much more we think about things than they think we do. It was something along those lines that I think that her feeling was teachers are assuming that kids are daydreaming or kids aren't really thinking all that deeply. And she was like I know there's a lot going on in here that teachers don't necessarily know about, and I wish they knew about that. And for me that's so important is I think we should be. I don't even love calling myself a teacher because I feel like it places the energy in the wrong place. I sometimes think of myself as a learning facilitator instead, and that's bumpy and clunky, so I don't really use it. But but how do you facilitate good learning without really understanding your learner? And so I think we should be always talking with kids and asking kids about what they think about things. You know, how's this unit going for you right now? Are you enjoying it, are you not Just today.

I had a couple of conversations with kids that I thought were so interesting. One involved an extrinsic motivational system. By the way, oh, do you tell, it was in a music class And this is totally a normal thing. I see this in lots of schools. In music classes Kids are doing recorder And there's a karate belt kind of system with the recorders where once you can master a certain skill, you get a white belt and then a yellow belt and you tie the little ribbons around your recorder. And there were a couple of kids standing next to me and the teacher just explained this and then kids were mulling around And I called a couple of the kids over nearby. I was like I'm curious, what do you think about that, that ribbon system, you know the belt system, and the kid kind of shrugged. I said, well, what do you think he's like? Well, i don't really like music, i really like art more. I said, right, but what do you think about the belt thing? He said I don't really care about it, and I thought that would be good information for teachers to hear.

I don't know if we're asking kids enough. Another question I asked I was noticing in a school that I was visiting recently that there are lots and lots of inspirational posters posted all around classrooms. You know, be the best version of your smell, be the kind of person who makes someone smile. Today, you know posters about growth, mindset, and I'm curious. I asked a couple of kids I was like so what do you think about those posters? Like, do you ever look at them or read them? And one of the kids said I think I did in the first day of school And I said well, do you like those posters up?

And both the kids I was talking to kind of shrugged and they were like they're okay, i guess, but I don't know. I think we should be asking kids questions like this all the time If we're going to engage them as partners in their own learning, if learning isn't something we're going to do to them. You know, if we don't view our kids as like factory workers where we're the like, the boss, we're the floor manager and we're going to direct everybody and tell everyone what to do and their jobs, to scurry around and do what we want. I don't mean that sounds flip, i don't mean it to come off that way, but if we view ourselves as collaborators with our kids, that we need to be talking with our kids a lot and asking them how things are going and what ideas they have.

Yeah, and I think I love what you're saying because I think it also means for us as adults, we need to embrace our own SEL growth and accept what they're telling us when we don't necessarily like like I had just done a blog post a couple months ago about how hard it is to ask for feedback. Like I ask for feedback from every session working with teachers or students and I still don't look at it for a couple of days because I'm like, oh, no, like, but I need it and I want it because I want to do better. But there's that sense of vulnerability there and like, okay, okay, i hope it won't. Well, i planned really hard to facilitate something. I like how you say, i agree, facilitator.

I think it's important for us to be vulnerable in hearing what feedback people have and actually use that. And sometimes I wonder if our students have a lot of thoughts but they're not willing to say it because they're not feeling emotionally or physically safe in the environment that they're going to be heard. And that goes back to how can we talk with students in a way that has them feel that their voice matters, that they're respected? And maybe that's looking at some of our own biases, our own micro messages, and I really like how you talked about those pieces, because it's not just our tone or it's not just what we say or our body language, but it's our tone of voice as well.

Yeah, you just mentioned a micro message. I've got one for listeners to consider, because I think that the main idea behind the what we say and how we say it matter book is I think we all have good intentions, but I think we all end up in some language habits that don't line up with our good intentions, but we're often not conscious of them. So here's one of the, here's one of the common mismatches that I see that I think connects with some of what we're talking about. It certainly connects with student motivation. I think almost all teachers want their kids to own the work. They want the work to feel like the kids own it, like this is my work, i have ownership for it, i care about it, it's mine. The teachers don't, i don't think, really want kids to feel like they're working for the teacher. But here's a classic example of a mismatch between what we want and how we, how we talk.

Teachers will often say things to kids like Okay, everyone, here are the three things you're going to do for me in this next activity. And when we say here the three things you're going to do for me, we're clearly placing the ownership of the work on the teacher. The kids are going to do something for us. We'll say to a young child who's working at sounding at a word Okay, try sounding out this word for me. Like, why are we adding the for me in there? Why not just say, try sounding out this word? Instead of saying here are the three things you're going to do for me today, we could say here are your three challenges for today. We're here are the three things we're all going to be working on together. I even this is a classic one And I know I said this myself, so I don't want to sound super judgy But how about this one? Okay, everyone, i'm going to give you 10 minutes for this next part of this activity.

A guilty right here, i'm going to give you 10 minutes. I control time, i have 10 minutes and I'm going to give you 10 of my minutes, when instead we could say Hey, everyone, you're going to have 10 minutes to work on this next activity. Now we're really clearly pacing the ownership of time with kids. You have 10 minutes. It's not that they're mine And I'm giving them to you. So that's a classic little tiny message that we send, and I don't think any one little message like that doesn't real harm. But if all day long, kids are hearing messages that say I'm here to do what they want, i'm here, the teacher owns the work and I'm doing the work for the teacher, how could we possibly expect kids to be self motivated if they're in there working for someone else?

It definitely has me thinking, as a school leader, how do you model that in a school environment where, for me, as a leader, i have to figure out, well, how do I continue to motivate and engage Educators who come with a whole host of things that are happening personally for them as well as professionally, and trying to do the best they can, the young people, and then having young people who also have their their a variety of needs as well, and so I'm really curious about what would your recommendations be to school leaders who are also trying to reframe, also trying to Not lean into the pressures in this environment that scores.

The teachers are leaving and you don't know how many teachers are actually still staying, of course, and doing all this great work, because I think that this is this is the right work. If there are, if there are not, all these additional layers, some kind of curious, what would be your recommendations to school leaders who are also trying to walk alongside their teachers and help them to do some of this reframing work that I think you're you're suggesting here, as well as continuing to move that post forward in regards to how students engage in the learning experience?

I love. I just said something about school leaders walking alongside teachers and I think that's a huge part of it is. I think there are a couple of things school leaders might do. One is to work at shifting their own language habits and their own messaging Right along with teachers, because very often school leaders frame teacher tasks in terms of compliance instead of engagement to Okay everyone here, the three things we have to do it today's staff meeting Instead of hey everyone, we got three goals for our staff meeting today. You know, when we frame it as a have to without meeting to, we're saying this is something we're just going to slog and get through. So modeling it for one thing I think is important, but then I also think that something like a language change it's a very personal thing And in my experience, if teachers aren't ready for it, trying to force it on people rarely does any good.

If anything, it just gets people really dysregulated and upset. So Jim Knight, the instructional coaching guru, has got a great entry point for conversations into this kind of thing with teachers to help them find some energy for it. He'll say something like what's something that you'd like for your students to do that they're not currently doing So to frame the goal around student behavior, student learning, student outcomes. And then if a teacher says, oh, i just feel like my kids are just doing the least amount possible, they're just doing they won't do anything. Unless I'm right on them all the time, if I'm not standing over their shoulder, they're not doing it.

Well, if we can identify that what the teachers looking for is some support around student engagement and helping students feel some more energy for their work, then we might offer that as a as a something to work on. Well, here's something you know. Hey, i just read this book the other day had me thinking about something. Let's look at the messaging that you're using the classroom maybe that's an entry point And so to help, to help teachers, so that when we're coaching teachers, we're not the one telling teachers what to do, we're saying what can I help you with and then offering them supports that they're asking for. I think that's something that can be really important.

I really like how you said find the energy to engage in whatever that change is or whatever that that piece is. And in your books you also talk about small, subtle shifts, and I think there's a trend there that we don't have to do everything all at once. But how can we pick one thing that we want to focus on, one word that we want to change? and actually I would probably turn it into a game if it were me And I'd talk to the students and say I want you to help check me. Like every time I'm trying not to say this phrase because I don't want to own that time anymore, like that's not my time to give to you and I've just been saying it and I want to change that. So maybe like kind of get them in so they're a little bit heightened in listening. And then I mean I could also take the joking and like the oh you know, you said it six times today. Okay, maybe I can get down to five tomorrow.

That's exactly what I did with my fourth graders when I was working on my first really big language shift, when I became more aware of my own language and started to see some of the mismatches. One of my biggest mismatches was I wanted my fourth graders to be independent and I wanted them to do things because it mattered to them. I wanted them to do the right things for the right reasons. I didn't want them to be always dependent on me, but the way I gave them praise was always in teacher centric ways. I love how you started off your story with all that description. Thank you so much for remembering to push in your chair. I like the way we're walking down the hallway so quietly.

All of my praise was centered around how I felt about stuff. Even as I didn't want them to be thinking about me, i wanted them to do it for themselves, and so I did exactly what you just shared or suggested. I said to my fourth graders I'm really working at moving away from the I like the way you and I love the way you form of feedback. So if you hear me say that, raise your hand and give me a gentle, friendly reminder. Oh, mr A, you just said I like the way Oh, my fourth graders were all over that They were so excited.

And by naming it to them, talk about an accountability system. I mean, you don't do that as a teacher unless you really mean it, because they're not going to forget, and it really helped me shift that habit. I also put sentence starters around my classroom, like up along the perimeter of the wall, up near the ceiling, so that I had other things to say in the moment, so that I could visually look up and have something else like you must be so proud of that work. You were working so hard. Instead of I love how much hard work you just put in, i had the you must dot, dot, dot, you know, sentence starter on the wall, which really helped.

That's a fantastic tip, I think, to be able to use, And it's a good visual cue for us. We talk about having. What are they like?

anger charts around the room.

And I think that's a great way to get students And just, i know Craig's got a question for you coming up. I just have one other thing that I want to mention that you that hit me earlier when you were talking about the recorders and the little ribbons. It made me think, and we don't need to have this conversation, but it just made me think about when people did the badging. You know, you just put in this and you get a badge to put in your email and like that did nothing for me, like I just wanted to learn, to learn. I don't need a badge, i don't need a sticker, i wouldn't have needed a little color, you know. And so I am thinking too, if we ask students what motivates them, what makes them feel a sense of accomplishment, like how do, how do they want to be recognized for growth? I think sometimes maybe some of them don't want it to be that public, everybody to see, and some of it don't want to be controlled by those systems And so they start to mock them.

I was working with a group of sixth grade teachers wants to have a system where, on on Monday, all of the kids got five stars on a card And every time they were irresponsible and didn't bring a pencil to class or they blurted or they forgot their homework, they would lose a star. Anybody who had still had one star left on Friday would get a special event or treat like get to do a fun outdoor recess or watch a short video, and the kids who'd lost all their stars from being so irresponsible had to go to a study hall and make up all the work they'd lost from being so irresponsible. And I asked the teacher, they asked me about the system and I was like, okay, you asked. I said well, one question I have is can you predict now because this was this was a couple of months into the school year And on Monday, can you predict which kids are going to get the special event and which kids are going to be sitting in the study hall? And they said yeah, it's the same kids week after week. I said okay, so clearly that's good information to think about? I said.

Another question I have is do you have some kids who are openly mocking the system And on Monday they're trying to see how fast they can lose their stars and they're bragging about it to each other? And they said yeah. I said I got another question about the kids who are sitting in the study hall and the kids getting the vet. As a general rule, would you say that it's your middle class and wealthier students who are getting the special event And it's your kids who are living in homes where they're experiencing poverty who are sitting in the study hall? and their eyes got big And they said yeah. I said yeah, I can see why you're questioning that system. That sounds like something you want to reconsider.

I love the way you just framed that whole thing. Even from, that's something good to think about, without being because in my head, who am I to tell them what?

to do. I'm a visitor in their school. I'm working with them for a couple of days. It's their work and that's. As a consultant all I can do is offer suggestions and support and ideas. But I even say in the what we say book you know, i say don't change your language because I think it's a good idea. That's a horrible. You will very quickly lose motivation and energy If you're doing this because somebody else thinks you should.

Yeah, thank you for that.

So we ask every guest that we have this big question. You know it's life changing, is paradigm shifting. What do you believe is your superpower?

Oh, I wish I'd had time to think about that ahead of time.

Well, while you think I need to tell the, if you don't mind me jumping in, I need to tell the listening audience. The reason I kind of laughed when you were telling your story is because, when you talked about blurting out, I do that when I get really invested in something and I don't mean to Like I take it back. I'm like I'm sorry, like I, when I'm moved by something, I do it as an adult And so I would have all my stars gone. And so I do feel like, while you're thinking about your SEL superpower, I need to explain why I started kind of chuckling.

Well, and that was me. I'm the same way, and you know, extroverts I'm a totally an extrovert. We often need to talk in order to think, and so all these posters we've got around schools. You know, think before you speak. Yeah, that's great for the introverts. It's also a social construct that's not true to all societies that there are some, some social circles where it's the polite and respectful thing to do to speak one at a time and to wait patiently. And then there are other places where the polite and respectful thing to do is for everybody to be talking all at once and for ideas to fly around and for people to be laughing, and we've got kids coming from all different kinds of backgrounds, and so to impose this one way that you're supposed to be polite and respectful, which may or may not line up with where they're coming from, is a is a bad idea.

All right, i'm still thinking about my superpower, and I think it might be that I'm I'm really good at connecting with people. I think When I go into a high school classroom, i can make eye contact with the kid across the room and make a connection and slide over and ask him some questions and chat. And when I go into a kindergarten classroom. I can. I can connect with kids. I think that's something that I'm pretty good at, is connecting with both kids and adults, and and it's certainly something that I love to do Like, i'm one of those people who, on the train or on the plane, if I strike up a conversation with somebody near me, i immediately start making connections. You know, oh so where'd you, where'd you grow up? Where are you from? Oh, rhode Island. Hey, my in-laws live in Rhode Island. Like, i love to make connections with people, so I guess, if I've got a superpower, maybe that's it.

Thank you, jordan. Oh, it's a really interesting question. It is. It is, you know, very, very, very much pulling my Oprah S Cat on for some some really interesting live questions that come up. So, for those who are who want to dig into this more, how do they get in contact with you, how do they stay connected to you so that they can continue to get their cups full with some of the great wisdom and resources you share?

Probably the easiest way is to go to my website. That's a landing page that will connect you with books I've written and online courses I've created and my Twitter account and all that. So my website is leadinggreatlearningcom and I write a blog. Infrequently, but I write a blog that's on that website. I also invite teachers I'm working with to write blogs, and so there are a bunch of middle school teachers in Connecticut who've been writing blogs through that website lately. You can connect with me on Twitter I'm at Balanced Teacher Probably the easiest way to connect us through my website.

Anything else going on in that wonderful mind. It seems like you know, chris, you got so much you're thinking about.

I just feel like every time I get a chance to talk with you, Mike, like I have all these questions and I just you have a really awesome presence to be around and I'm always learning more, and the fact that you're so willing to share and to give, And I just I've always appreciated that. I don't know if I've actually said that out loud to you or not, but you're one of those people that, like you, allow you envelop everybody who's around.

Like you make people feel welcome And I think that's important And especially, you know, doing the consulting work can sometimes be a lonely job, like you're moving around from place to place to place, and it's just nice to know that there's people around that like you can reach out to and be like Hey, can I pick your brain about this? Or you know, and I think you're one of those people that I know, if I'm like, hey, do you have a couple of minutes to chat? Like you've always been like yes, and it's just been awesome.

And so I want to thank you.

I want more people to read your books and come in and learn from you, like you've been so open to sharing and building those relationships. So thank you for your time here. I know you're traveling And so it you know. We appreciate you taking time from your travel schedule to talk with us as well.

All right, all right, all right, all right, all right. SEL and EDU family. It has been quite the treat. We have Mike Anderson, who is here, author of at least one of the latest titles, and of course, you can check out so much more But tackling the motivation crisis, how to activate student learning without behavior charts, pizza parties and other hard quit incentive systems, and there's so much more. So just go to learning great leading great learningcom and get blown away by all the resources that are there, and you can also connect with Mike as well. Until we come back together, sel and EDU family, hold someone dear and tight and just continue to stand strong in the SEL life. We love you and we'll talk to you again soon.