041: Redefining Joy, Authenticity, and the Integration of Academic and Social-Emotional Learning with Maureen Chapman and James Simons

Welcome to SEL in EDU.

Where we discuss all things social and emotional in education.

I'm.

Krista, I'm Craig and we are your hosts on this journey.

This podcast is created in partnership with Pennsylvania ASCD. Hello, hello, hello. Sel, in EDU family, we are cracking up over here. I'm going to let you in on a little secret right away. We started recording Our podcast episode, had fabulous conversation and then I realized we weren't recording. So we're going to have a do-over for you, and the do-over started with Craig. How are you doing today?

I am rolling right on over because it's just. I mean, it just does what it does. I'm just telling you, baby, but what I was saying earlier is right now, as we are recording, it's spring going into summer and I was really thinking about getting my fingernails and my toenails actually painted, because it brought me so much joy during my trip in Mexico. I'm like I don't know, you know, it's something. Maybe it's because it's international. I felt like I was all of the things, all of the magic, the unicorn energy was flowing. But I'm like, huh, I'm back in the States. Can men actually get out here and get their nails done and not get the side eye from other folks? So, sel and EDU family, tell us what your thoughts are. But, krista, what are your thoughts about all those things?

Yeah, my thoughts are you should be definitely getting your nails done, I think, in short, life is too short. We need to do what brings us joy and you need to be doing this and was sharing when we weren't recording that. I channeled my inner Craig when I was working with staff yesterday and I don't the context we are doing a check in and one of the teachers in the room sent me an email. So when I got home later yesterday it said thank you for stating this. I needed this today and I'm going to give you your words back to you, craig, because this was me thinking of you when I was saying this Remember who you are and stand in your greatness and authenticity.

All right Nice masculinity, femininity, do what makes you, you and you happy. And if you want glitter nails, you should have glitter nails.

It's a beautiful thing. It is. It does what. So how are you living into your authenticity? What's going on in your work?

So what I started to say is that my authenticity is that I admitted that I sometimes curse. We were talking with our guests and I'm like yeah, yeah, you know, I have three teenage boys. I was a high school teacher for 15 years and I not. I used to say to them no cursing, like pick another word, and they'd like oh, come on, miss, I know you curse and I'm like not between the months of June and or not, be too sorry, now let me start that over again. Not between the months of August and June. And they'd start laughing. But I did wrote. When my boys got older I said to them you know, I can understand there's power in a well placed curse word, but don't ever curse at somebody and you can't overuse it because it loses everything, like people just stop listening to you. So that is my authenticity. Right there is that sometimes a well placed curse word can can do it. I know that might not be very SEL of me, but it's never cursing at somebody.

It is fully SEL, especially over a good meal, I'm just saying. But you know what? We got some great guests here that we just need to go ahead and lean in. So the thinking share a little bit more about what's going on with them, whereas all the magic that that keeps away the static how you love that for a little poetic justice. So I'm going to introduce Maureen and James, who are long time collaborators and best friends, their owners of COR, creative partners, less co founders.

Maureen and James support educators to integrate academic and social emotional learning in the general classroom. Maureen and James provide symmetrical tools for individual educators, professional teams and students on topics including self care, self regulation, student voice, growth, mindset, her severe and leadership. They both, through their, do a lot of great work. Probably could help the Celtics at this time. May not make it into the finals, we don't know. That's what we are today. Today is the game. We'll see, but nonetheless, maureen and James, they both have served as teachers and school leaders for many years and they have so much more to share today. How are y'all doing?

today we're doing about 30% better after that introduction. That's incredible. We've been introduced by different people in different contexts and I would say that is the greatest introduction we've ever had.

Yeah, that's for sure, and we have always loved your energy. It's just something about Craig. Even just online, without even before we met you, I was just like I'd be sending James text, like I think I love Craig Martin.

Join the fan club?

Yeah, it is a love that is pure and enduring.

Yes, amen. And our company name core is Latin for heart, and all about love, and and so loving the opening to just the nails and and do the things that bring you joy, and if they open a conversation, then all the better for everyone who's in it.

Yeah, even if that conversation is littered with curse words, we are on.

Hey people, hey, that's the SEL EDU at night. I'm just saying Seven o'clock somewhere. So what's bringing y'all joy today, maureen and James? I, where you are, out here in the streets doing some incredible work, changing lives, setting off all kinds of lights and fireworks and epiphanies for the world to explore and grow from. So what's what's bringing joy to your life right now?

Oh, it's a big question, you know. I think we're really trying to work to find joy and a lot of things and to find gratitude for a lot of things. I think we feel really grateful to have a lot of opportunity to see so many different teachers, so many different classrooms, talk with so many school leaders. It gives us so much experience and experience is the greatest teacher, and then we have each other to process and reflect on our experience and make meaning out of it. So it's a real privilege and and it's very joyful.

Yeah, and you know, with a lot of professions, you can peek over to see what's happening in the cubicle next to you. Teaching is a profession where you are in your classroom with your kids and you're just spread too thin to be popping around room to room building to really soak it all in. And so we are so privileged to just be able to be in different settings, where, in independent schools and Catholic schools and public schools and suburban schools and urban schools, and just every day, we are learning so much, we're feeling so inspired by the educators and the kids we're working with and just by the opportunity to outside those walls talk about this stuff that we care so much about.

We used to do these as a video and we don't anymore, but I wish people could have seen that when Craig asked you the question, you both smiled and looked at each other, so you have this synergy together already. I'm very curious. Tell me how you met, what was it that brought and what you saw in each other that you're like. You know what. We're going to do this together, because I have to say that I mean, when you choose to work ongoing with somebody, that there's something bringing you together, not just the vision that you have moving forward, and so I'm curious about your backstory.

I think we're doing it again. That's so nice and I think it's a really important part of our company and, I think, something that as we get more into this work, feel like it's a real. We're really lucky to have each other. We were at the same school, so we met at work, we were both teachers and then we both transitioned into school leadership around the same time and so he was a principal, I was curriculum director and we were on an instructional leadership team together and I think just really feel very aligned and also really feel that we can push each other and we can share how we're feeling and all of the messiness that that can mean.

And I think just we have a lot of trust in each other as professionals and as people. And so you know, I think when we were feeling in the pandemic like there's just a real urgency to the need in this field that we both care so much about, and we weren't really sure what exactly supporting it in a different way might look like, but I think we were trusting that with each other we could somehow just take it on. I think it's a real testament to we can believe in ourselves more when we're with other people and we can push each other to do better things than we would do on our own.

Yeah, when we talk about SEL, it is such a politicized buzzword and a word that sometimes is used to the point that the meaning kind of trickles out and you're not fully processing what exactly we're discussing. But you know, social, emotional, it's about relationships and it's about feelings. And so to be doing this work with someone that you have a strong relationship with in a place that is really safe, to be processing how it feels to do work that is so challenging and so vulnerable, it's a really great place to start. And so, yeah, we find it helpful to bring other people into this energy sphere and just say, like, you know, what would it be like if your relationship with your colleague that you have tension with felt a bit more like this, where we're seeing the best in each other, where we're sharing how we're feeling, no matter how difficult that is?

What would it look like if that relationship existed with a student in your class? I mean, every teacher can think of who is that student? Who's just keeping them up at night, who's causing them stress, who's potentially causing them feelings of frustration? And you know, going back to our company name, core like how can we bring our heart to that? How can we remember that we love that student the way we love all the people in our life and really see, you know, the good at the center of that student and at the center of that relationship with that student. So, yeah, it's been just starting from a place of positivity. It's been really energizing to try to spread that through our work.

Yeah, and I would say James is someone who's really pushed me on the emotional way, like if I was sharing with you know, if he's created we have a safe space to share and if I'm sharing something of a frustration, you know he's a talk to them, that's a good person.

Have that conversation. I'd be like what that would be a hard conversation, I think. So I know that's a particular area that I feel like you know, as a lifelong learner and someone with growth mindset for yourself and the things that you know I would have never done 10 years ago that you know to feel like with practice, hard conversations don't have to be hard. You can just have a conversation and trust where it will go, and that's something I think is a way that you know, just an example of a way that this relationship is a positive, safe space where we push each other and, you know, get lots of practice at just kind of processing hard things and different stressful situations and just how we can stay positive and help support each other to stay positive about really challenging work.

I'm curious what has felt like the most gratuitous work you've been doing lately with some of the educators or schools that our organizations have been working with.

I guess can you say a little more when you say gratuitous.

Just knowing that, through some of your coaching, through some of the professional learning that you may be leading, what are you seeing in regards to? Maybe you're seeing some epiphanies with educators who are like, wow, this new approach to this new strategy is really helping me in this classroom. Or Sitting with a team of leaders who are trying to plan for the upcoming year based on all of the things that have happened this current year and then feeling a sense of excitement, even if people at this point are at the end of their school year and they're feeling a little bit worn out because here's been a year, so just wondering whether or not there's been some things that have been very fruitful in the work that you are seeing with core at this point in the year.

Yeah, I would say one thing that's felt really productive for us has been introducing tools that educators can use personally and then use on their collaborative professional teams and then also use in their classrooms with their kids. And when we think of academic work, we practice for so many years Before we bring that academic work to students. If you are a math teacher, you've got that quadratic equation down before you ever become a math teacher. And right now we're at a point where we're realizing emotional learning and social learning is so important and it needs to be happening in the core curriculum. But a lot of educators they've spent a lot of time learning that math but they haven't been learning these, these skills related to social and emotional learning.

And so often you'll go to an educator who says I want students to develop these skills, I want them to be better at self regulation, for example, but I just I don't have capacity, I'm spread so thin and I don't know how to do that.

And we find, by giving an educator a self regulation tool that they can practice themselves. You know, maybe it's a reflection, thinking about when I'm dysregulated what does it look like, what does it sound like? What are strategies I try that are successful or not successful. One, educators go oh, that was really helpful, and we see them doing a better job of self regulating when they're supporting students, which is just fostering a safer place for students to activate their social and emotional skills. And two, by using it, it's easier to see the applicability within the teaching and learning context. So, ok, I tried it out for myself. Here's an idea of how I could use this as an icebreaker moving into this quadratic equation exercise that we're doing. So that's been a real breakthrough, something that just makes what initially feels like a really daunting task of integrating academic and social emotional learning feel much more manageable.

Yeah, and if the teacher might a lot of teachers when they say what they need, when they're feeling dysregulated, is a little time alone, even if that means hiding in their classroom closets and so either way, then it's like well, of course you know and you're frustrated how often kids are going to the bathroom like they're on display all day too and they need a little bit of recovery time, a little bit of time just to be alone. It's so powerful and so doing that reflection about yourself versus always helpful, I think. Also, you know, just in coaching teachers, like we just work in school this week coaching teachers and it's late in the year, and so it's in some ways a time when people are like, oh, I wish I had done this months ago. And in other ways it's an exciting way to be getting your head around how you want to start next year. But you know, talking to a lot of teachers about how often we have the impulse to solve for students, but ultimately they're the ones who have to figure themselves out. They're the ones who are going to live their whole lives as them.

So there was somebody had a student who cried every single day for hours and so finally, in an observation was able to observe it. It's a you know this young kindergarten student and you know we were processing how we felt, like what the root causes might be and how the student might be able to seek attention around her emotions or share how she's feeling in a way that might be more productive. And so, you know, we're able to have the student kind of controlling a visible emotions chart where she could make a plan with a teacher and then co-constructors. Here's some strategies that might work for me that I think I could use when I'm feeling sad. And you know, the first day she used it she didn't cry and you know, she was able to kind of process how she was feeling and, like, really complete the emotion, get back all the way to happy. So she wasn't just in a cycle of restarting over and over but could settle and kind of see for herself Okay, I've decided now I'm happy and I can kind of move on.

So I think for teachers sometimes it's just exhausting trying to feel like I got to figure out how to get this kid to stop crying. How do you think I should get this kid to stop crying? It's like, well, we got to ask the kid, you know, what do you need? How are you feeling? You know we have to kind of catch ourselves when we're making statements that start with you are or you need, like, oh, you're okay. You know a kid comes up and how often do we just jump to oh, you're okay. Well, you know they didn't feel like they were okay, so just flipping to are you okay? Let the kid have a second to decide for themselves if they're okay. Or, like you know you need to listen, like we just have to tell kids that then you know they haven't really gotten on board with it. So just some of that shift and approach to give the kids permission to think for themselves, so they can accept what they've decided, and then you can move together a lot faster.

I am so excited You've just shared so many really powerful strategies that teachers can like. They should be writing all of this down, so I'm trying to remember. I'm like, yes, yes, yes. And so, if you saw, I was looking down at my phone because, james, as you were talking, I was finding a, an image I found on Instagram yesterday and I actually brought it up when I was working with the staff. It says it was done by pathway to success. That was the Instagram account.

A few minutes of organization time at the end of the day, or classes, highly underrated. Even when kids and teens have the skills to organize, they often need reminders, space and structured. Again. And I think about how I was. I was a former high school teacher. We were told at the time teach bell to bell. And you know, okay, now the bell, pack up your stuff and go, and who knows like there wasn't time to say, okay, figure out where you need things to be so you can find them later. And I think about myself if I don't put my keys, hang them back up where they need to be, if I cell phone back like I don't know where it's gone, or I end up with piles and and and so, marine, what you were saying to about I'm jumping back and forth between the two of you because you had so much stuff there that, like, think about what we need and give that time and space for our students.

Yeah like that. It's not a. It is the social and emotional pieces here and we need to be explicit about it with them. But we didn't, we weren't taught. That it was all. You're right about the content. And there was like, oh, a child psychology and psych, one oh one, and that was it, like you know, sophomore year, and you never saw it again. So we're not with the students, so it's not something that we do to them, but we're helping them and and there's two levels there. It's what do we need for ourselves to James, you were talking about the self management technique for the teacher to try. We're still growing in these skills as well, so let's practice that and model it so we can better support students being able to do this. And so we're saying I'm like yes, yes, Well, from one key loser to another.

Validate your challenge is something that I really build a lot of strategies around, and I think, talking about the strategies we use like, okay, so I'm aware about this thing, about myself, here's the strategy I use. But also to validate the teachers who see a problem and they would like to solve it and they think maybe they shouldn't. Just there's a lot of barriers to doing something differently in people's mindsets, and so I was coaching a Spanish teacher who teaches middle school all grade levels of middle school and she was really expressing concern about exactly that the fifth graders being able to organize for a transition and I said, okay, so that's a, so you're naming that as a concern, something you want to support them with. So that's the first step, just processing for yourself. This is something I see as a problem and okay, from there let's think about solutions and I said you know, the great thing about the updated language frameworks is they empower language teachers to teach about anything in the target language.

So you could actually, in your Spanish class, do a lesson about prepositions. Let's put this book on top of that, let's do it. You know, whatever your content is, like, you can or whatever your vocab list is you could do something where they're practicing or modeling. They're seeing an image of success, of a well stacked desk, and then they're using their Spanish and moving around. So there's a lot of ways to kind of honor what you're seeing as a need and not. Sometimes I think teachers can start to feel worried that if they do what they think they should do, kids won't be ready for the next grade. That's something that we hear a lot is getting in the way for people and we hear it a lot as something sort of a negative view of the future that kids get. Well, in third grade you won't be able to stop and organize your books, so you can't have time. Now, you know, and it's something I think that that's a barrier for us sometimes.

Yeah, there's this assumption that they magically get gain these skills through natural development, but their skills that have to be practiced and honed. I'm, I'd like to add, to ask a follow up question because I'm also very excited about this. When I was looking on your website, you also have a very specific component around diversity, equity and inclusion and for me I always knew it was embedded, and my friend calls me a castle purist, so I followed the collaborative for academic, social and you're smiling, so I'm assuming maybe your your castle purists as well.

Yeah.

And it was the DEI language was there, but it wasn't as explicit until October of 2020, when they kind of redefine those competencies and and really teased out some of those skills. And I'm like, yes, this is awesome because it starts with knowing who you are and your strengths and your identity, and understanding what biases you have as a teacher, as a person, and how that could interrupt relationships that you're trying to build. And sometimes you you mentioned you know people politicize things in a bias and you know you can have a bias to colors or to a type of cheese that you like to eat. You know, but thinking about biases that we have that could interrupt having a healthy, successful, empowered life. So I'd love to hear your thoughts around the diversity, equity and inclusion and what that looks like for you and what you're seeing in schools with teachers and what maybe advice you would give. So I kind of left that wide open.

Yeah, what a great question. Yeah, we're just talking before this interview about how we exist in bodies and, and we're so uncomfortable talking about our bodies and, and there's a biological element to it. You know, I sit down for a test and chemicals are flooding through my body telling me should I, should I fight this beast of the ground? Should I go running? Am I safe? Am I in danger? And so you know we need to work with our bodies and tell our bodies don't worry, you're safe. I know. You know you've served me well through evolution to make sure I don't get eaten by a woolly mammoth Right now. This is a science test. We're good, I'll take it from here. And so there's there's that piece of connecting with our emotions, connected to our bodies, and then there's thinking of our bodies and all the identity markers that come with these bodies that we inhabit, all the social currency that's in the pocket of our bodies or is not in the pocket of our bodies. And in order to get at issue of equity, we need to talk about these things. You know, I heard you say earlier, krista, like teaching a skill, the first thing is you name it. You know, if you have an objective, you put it on the board and you put it on the assignment directions and you put in the rubric. We're going to see it and talk about it and think about it and practice it and so really to make any kind of progress with equity we need to be really deliberate and in our work we often find ourselves in buildings where you look at the classroom and we see a lot of students of color and you look at the teacher's room and you see a lot of educators who are white women and often will bring up in coaching like, oh, you're teaching this book. This would be a great opportunity to hear from kids about what's their experience. You just see a lot of educators are afraid to bring it up. They just are worried. They're into vulnerable of a position, personally or professionally. They're worried they have too much power to harm someone else and they'll say the wrong thing that negatively impacts these kids they care about.

I was in a class a few days ago and I had set up a gallery walk and students were going around responding to prompts related to a novel. I heard a student say one of the prompts was write a discussion question and I heard one student of color say to another student of color. How about a discussion question of does racism impact people's daily lives? I was walking over and the child saw me and stopped and laughed and I just felt like this child thinks he said something wrong. This child thinks that I'm going to redirect him and he was surprised when I said oh my gosh, that's awesome. Yes, let's talk about this.

We need to try to pull aside the fear that's blocking these conversations. Going back to our bodies being vessels for emotions, these emotions can be a barrier to learning or a bridge to learning, and so often, if we don't name them, they become a barrier. We need to pull that aside and really get into it. When we do so, we have really uncomfortable conversations, but it's important that we're having these conversations.

Sometimes, as we go to different schools, we notice there's a lot of focus on compliance and not as much focus on communication. I think it's really important that all students, regardless of what they look like and where they come from and how much money is in their wallet, they're learning the skills to appropriately communicate how they're feeling and they're learning in doing so. They're learning to be leaders. If we're just focusing on compliance, students are learning to be followers, and that's particularly detrimental when we're looking at students who are from different communities that have been marginalized in different ways. It's so interesting. Sel is all about equity and you're right, we don't talk about it enough, but we really see it as core to everything we're doing.

I think that for a lot of teachers who are worried about their capacity to handle the conversation, just as an entry point, thinking about those levels of text connection, if you have the chance for kids to connect the text whether the text is a novel or a phenomenon in the environment or whatever text you're studying in the world do that text to self and that text to world connection. If you flip your writing prompt into something that gives them a chance to share something, that's going to open a line for them to talk about something in their lives, whether it's the kind of food they're eating, and then if they are able to share what they've written or processed or whatever with other students, then other students are hearing what's important to them and what's happening in their lives and really self-awareness plus sharing. I mean this has been a real takeaway for us in doing a lot of Castle Work. Self-awareness plus sharing improves your social awareness and then when you improve your social awareness, that improves your relationship skills. But kids need the opportunity to get to know each other better through their work. Let their academic work also be an avenue for them to share their opinions, share their experiences, learn about each other, be proud of themselves and have the opportunity to feel like there's space in the room for their lives, their experience and, if they're bringing up something that makes the teacher uncomfortable, just to trust that we can have that conversation and that if kids need to talk about that, we can give them the tools to have that conversation in a way that's going to be productive toward their goals, because their goals are important and we can't teach all the content, but we can teach them how to make the difference that they want to make and actually execute it so that they can feel proud of the change they're making.

So, related to language kids have expressed to us and we love talking to kids. They want help with how to talk to adults because they need a lot of safety to do it. There's a lot of risk. One adult might be really open to what they're saying. Another adult might not, even if what they're saying is like what's the work I missed they might get.

You know, kids are sometimes really managing adults' emotions and tiptoeing around what an adult might say to what they do, and so they don't have a lot of vocabulary for their feelings. You know kids will be quick to say something was boring or something was stupid and they just don't have other words and those words aren't going to get them where they need to go. So we have to help train them. You know, like what I was just saying before this, we ask adults to be five to one positive, negative comments to really be able to support people. But why can't we train kids to do the same? You know kids to express gratitude, so if they're doing five positive comments for every constructive piece of feedback they give the teacher, maybe they're going to get a little farther. Like why does that have to be a secret for adults to do? But yeah, so just in the training of communication, to be able to communicate a sensitive message that's important to you is a real important academic skill that's going to connect to your emotions and your motivation, your sense of self-worth.

Wow, Just brimming. There's so much, so much. You know we asked this question of all of our guests. And so curious what do you see as your superpower?

We knew this was coming. I've been incredibly stressed about it. My superpower is not answering the question. What is your superpower?

I will tell you that it doesn't?

like to you know. Yeah, humility is my great superpower. That is absolutely not true.

I'm going to let you answer. Oh, am I answering first?

Yeah, yeah, you started talking, oh yeah, gentlemen, first You're so polite, all right, all right, here it comes. So in this conversation, your first wish something you, I go out here and I question I'm a really fast runner.

No, that's actually true.

I know I don't know if I knew you were going to say that I think my superpower is I feel gratitude and love very strongly, and I feel that for people who are close to me and I feel that for people whose paths I cross with just momentarily, whose lives I touch just for a moment, working with teachers and working with kids, I am always able to see the good in them and the potential that they have, and I find those connections just so profoundly rewarding, and so I would say that is my superpower.

Yeah, I was thinking about this too.

I was like, oh, he's always asking this question and I wanted to pick something that felt like it wouldn't have been true all through my life, because I feel like just doing the work something that I've done the work or continued to do the work on and would love for the children of the world to be able to do is to feel happy for other people's successes and inspired by them.

I think we can really put ourselves down when we look at the next person, but there's so much opportunity to see what we could be when we really see other people's strengths and I'm one of seven children, I'm the middle child and I think you're growing up You're seeing just everyone around you and all the things they're doing well or how your identity is developing in opposition to theirs, and at a certain point I was like, no, I am all of them, I could be all of their greatest strengths, and if I have a concern about them, that's something I can work on for myself too, and so it's just a mindset of this asset-based mindset about others and this inspired point of view. So that's something that I really strive to do is just be happy for other people's successes and then to keep feeling like that's something that can push me to be better too.

Good answer.

Oh, thank you.

You're both so inspiring and your energy level, too, is amazing, not only with each other, so I can't even imagine what it would be like to be in the same room while you're both working with the group. I think it would be encourage. And just to throw this out here too, and you've probably already heard of it, I wouldn't be surprised with the knowledge base that you have in the work that you're doing and for our listeners out there. When you're talking about assets and relationships, there's the Search Institute, based in Minneapolis, has a list of 40 developmental assets that they say we need in order to thrive and, interestingly, 20 are internal and 20 are external assets. So the external are more around community and family supports, and then your internal are more of the social, emotional pieces that you can continue to build and grow in. And they say that our young people they've been studying them for over 25 years now, I think by I want to say fourth or fifth grade. It's at 21 assets by high school seniors. It's like 1918. And they need 31.

And so when you're thinking about what assets do our kids have? And let's find them and stop looking at all the things wrong. And they also just came out with a framework called developmental relationships, and so for people who are like, how do I build this relationship with a child, they used feedback from students and they put it into a framework, and so I think that those pieces go hand in hand, and it's exactly what you're speaking to and the work that you're doing with people and helping them see that this isn't extra. You're showing them how it integrates naturally into what they're doing, and we just need to let the kids in on it. Like you said, it shouldn't be a big secret that we all want to. How can we be on this journey with the kids? And so I'm so impressed with the work that you're doing and I can't wait to keep. You're going to say I'm going to be following you everywhere on so not in real life, I promise.

If you want.

Offery and scary, but also media, and so where else can people find you If they're like me and they're like oh, I need to learn more from Maureen and James. How can people get a hold of you on social and get a hold of you for, like you know what. You need to come in and talk to my staff or my students and work with us.

Yeah, we would love for people to reach out. We do coaching, we do consulting, we develop PLC cycles. The best way to reach out to us you can go to our website, which is corecorcreativepartnerscom. Or what I said to when I was a high school principal last year and when I left to do this, I said to my kids hit me up on LinkedIn. And it was the coolest I'd ever felt. I didn't have TikTok, but I sure had LinkedIn. So you can always hit us up on LinkedIn. But, yeah, go to the website and you'll see our email addresses. And yeah, we're always very happy to talk with people.

Thank you, and for those of you who are listening, it will be in the show notes as well, just for those of you who might be out on a run or driving in your car and you can't write something down, it'll stick in your brain here. So thank you so much for making time to come talk to us. I foresee an invite for, like hey, let's check in with Maureen and James and see how they're doing. You want to come back on and do a part two? I'll remember to hit record.

I was just going to say are you sure this has been recording? Yes, it will be a longstanding joke and I can also say that we can usually answer a question because we know what each other would say, and I can already say yes, we would love to come back.

Yeah, we truly do.

It's been really wonderful being here at Energy as well, and we really appreciate what you're doing.

Yeah, yeah, it's such an honor. We love the podcast. It's been so nice talking with you both and we're really grateful for you inviting us on.

Thank, you, thank you.

S-C-L-N-E-D-U family. We got to get on up out of here because we will be back again very soon. But do not forget like you need to invest in yourself. Check out corecreativepartnerscom. Maureen and James are amazing.

Ha ha ha, it's a quarter. That is a whisper. Yes, ma.

So until we meet again, S-C-L-N-E-D-U family, we just want you to continue to hold yourself. You deserve all the love you give to yourself and all those around you. You deserve to make sure it's real tight and it feels real right. And until we come together again, we will continue to move and march and live into the S-C-L-N-E-D-U life. We love y'all. Y'all take care.