048: The Power of Empathy in Shaping Educational Equity with Hedreich Nichols

Welcome to SEL in EDU.

Where we discuss all things social and emotional in education. I'm Krista and I'm Craig and we are your hosts on this journey.

Hello SEL in EDU family, thank you, thank you. You're back again for season three of SEL in EDU. Craig, how are you today, my friend?

I'm doing well, I'm doing good, I'm doing good, I'm doing good, I'm doing good. So when we're recording, it is January, it is the first weeks of January, so I'm experiencing a birthday month, extravaganza, chapter 45, doing all the things Good gracious. I'm bringing folks together, we're enjoying calories. It's calorie free. When you come now, come to our house during this month and you just enjoy food, you can't take New Orleans tradition. It's like a big old cinnamon bun twist braid cake, and my mom sent me one of my favorites, which is pecan. And when I tell you what a good cup of coffee, a good cup of coffee or tea, like it goes up either way, you can warm that thing up and just enjoy. It's just mouth watering deliciousness that everyone deserves.

And I think that's the best thing you should. Amazing. So I need to add this to my list of foods to try. And so a can cake. I have to look that up. Have you ever had an angel food cake before? Yeah, and our guest is like yes, we were just saying before we hit record that it's a shame we're not doing video anymore, because you could. You're missing these facial expressions and craigs dancing. But I think angel food cake is my absolute favorite, and that's the other one. It's chock full of sugar, but it's so light I'm like there's no calories in this. There you go, you can just keep walking. Yes, after you introduce our guest, I think one of the questions we're going to have to ask her is her favorite cake Eat. You've got can cake, we've got angel food cake. I'm curious what our guests are out there eating. So I will pass it over to you, because we don't want to keep our listening audience waiting any longer.

All right, let me so. I'm most extremely excited that we have had Rick Nichols here, an education superstar, global education superstar consultant, who actually helps educators and districts amplify the voices of all their scholars. Hadric has small bites podcast, which I think has hundreds of episodes at this point, longstanding like a model that we are also taking a note from, because here is a leader who's been doing this work, been having incredible conversations with folks across the globe for many years, who continues to also help campuses amplify student voice, with a centering on educational equity. Between small bites and her work as a writer, Hadric works to help educators create more culturally responsive classrooms and campuses.

Her five Cherry Lake trade titles includes what is anti-racism and excellence in STEM, which also means that she is great at making good trouble, yes, by providing teachers with materials that help students understand systemic inequalities in STEM and making sure that we get to see STEM heroes of color. And also, knowing that this is an award winning title, which I can't wait to share a little bit more about in the latest of the wonderful work that Ms Nichols has finding your blind spots eight guiding principles for overcoming implicit bias in teaching. So additionally, just in case you just didn't get enough, and this is actually not in the bio, but you also may know that Ms Nichols is also a Grammy nominated recording artist and has a CD called the church bench as well, and it's great to know that she is her masters of ed in tech from Texas A&M University. Without further ado, I am excited, we are excited to welcome Nichols. How you doing, how is your heart today?

Oh, my goodness, my heart is overwhelmed. All of those, those, those things, those. Thank you, who's it? Who's this person? Again, I have to follow her. She sounds amazing.

Amazing. I was Googling too, and I'm like you. Two music videos, oh my, oh, wow, you have a beautiful voice.

I think that's the thing I miss most about being in the classroom every year. Somebody would find that and you know it would be like look what I found. I found her. Look y'all, this is Ms Nichols, Did y'all see? And I was like you know, this happens every year. So I feel, found, Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, the church bench that was my baby.

I look we have already talked outside of this, but one of the things that I appreciate you know about you and your humanity, as well as just how you show up in the space, especially in the book, finding your Blind Spots. And I'm not saying you know, I'm not sure I will share some of what I share, because I want to also respect our conversation outside of the. You know the the nature of what we talked about, but in this book I really felt seen and you share some really interesting anecdotes, specifically for me, being a black queer man in this America who's not married, grew up in the church community, grew up in the Catholic faith in New Orleans, louisiana, it was so it resonated a lot to be thinking about. All right, so I know who the Quad Director is. I believe he queer and I knew this early in my, in my childhood development, but you know.

But what I found, what was what was great, was that there was such a great layers of conversation that you shared in this book to really have people think about their own humanity, how they situate themselves in these really common experiences that we all have, and then what are the ways that we can make sure that we are, as affirming how we can take a step back and just be curious, but also that you layer this in things that feel friendly and accessible to anyone who's on their journey, and so I'm grateful that this is such an incredible guide with tons of resources, and so I'm really curious for you, with all the wonderful work you've done, all the educators that you continue to work with how what does the work look like for you on the ground in regards to supporting educators and school districts, in regards to this journey of creating inclusion and belonging in this whole game, when we got folks who you know we all are works in progress, so how does that work?

for you so far. I think I really like that you kept using the word humanity. I kept using the word humanity and in some of my social media stuff that I was getting together for this year, that's one of the things I want to stress. It's not about politics, humanity, and a lot of times we get bogged down in buzzwords and sides and sides of the aisles and things that don't have anything to do with an educator and their students. You know things that don't have anything to do with a human and their neighbors and their brothers and sisters, and you know the folks that are just on your path every day, and that is that's. That's what the work looks like to me right now.

You know there was the George Floyd incident, which was kind of a wake up call for everyone, and, as with all things, if a pendulum swings suddenly and far, the backlash is also usually that aggressive, and so where, right after George Floyd, you know, was murdered, all we heard was we've got to do better. We didn't know these things were still happening. Let's find out how we can make this world more inclusive, more human, more equitable, and we've gotten, within just a couple of years, we've gotten to a place where I think it was the most recent legislation was that here in Texas, no DEI organizations will be funded at private universities. Or another recent change was that in the military, they're talking about what kinds of things can be talked about in military schools, schools on on bases, and what kinds of things can even be taught to people who are being trained for the military. Those kinds of things that and we're seeing that as politics, we're seeing that as quote unquote wokeism, as opposed to seeing that as how are we, how are we not being good humans? Why did this stuff happen? Why was it so important two years ago and how can it suddenly not be important? Are we missing something?

And so that's what the work on the ground looks like right now really getting people to see that nothing's changed. You know the same dire knee that we had in the wake of the George Floyd protests. Those are the same. That's the same dire knee that we have now, if not even. You know, even more so, because there's so many people making it be a fearful thing for parents and groups on the ground who are now fighting in educational spaces to keep those organizations and frameworks out of schools.

And so, to put it, to put it with real words, you have kids who are minoritized, who have always been minoritized, who are still being minoritized, who are still the most vulnerable people on a lot of our campuses, who are being taught by people who do not look like them, who don't come from communities that they do, who are still ill-equipped to help those students be successful, and that's what we're fighting about. So again back to the humanity word. How can that be us having more humanity? So my work right now is to get people to understand that the work is not political. The work is about humanity.

Yeah, and I'm hearing you, and it is reminding me of the core competencies of SEL, and the one in particular around social awareness, and it talks about taking other people's perspectives and then, under relationship skills, it's about developing cultural competency and looking at things from all sides. And I'm saying I'm using that in quotes that whole all sides perspective, I know what you mean.

Thank you that I've heard this quote before and as a social studies teacher I used it in my high school classrooms that if we don't talk about religion or politics or race, we don't learn how to have these conversations.

So if we totally say, if this is off the table, we don't help our young people learn how to have respectful dialogue where they can hear different points of view and different perspectives that they may not have encountered before, or maybe, like you have written about in your book, it's a blind spot for them. And tell me if I'm right in thinking about this, but for me a blind spot is something that I have never had to consider before. It's maybe something that comes up that has never been a barrier for me. I've never had any pushback to it. I never realized the intention that, or I never realized the harm that maybe it was causing somebody else, because no one brought it to my attention or I didn't have an awareness of it to begin with. Am I thinking of that the right way, and can you expand upon what that means for you in your book?

I would love to. I mean when you're driving. I've been driving a while and there was not always a little yellow light that went beep, beep, beep when I crossed into a lane of somebody. And the blind spot is the place in a car. When you're driving, you can't see a car when it's about two thirds of the length back, you can't see it in your mirrors and you can't see it unless you completely turn around and look for it. But you don't know it's there. So there's no reason for you to look for it. And so you could. If you tried to change lanes, you would literally hit the car because it is in your blind spot and it's again a spot you don't know. You don't know that there's a car there because it is in a blind spot. And that's exactly what it is you are. You've never been confronted with anything. You've never.

When we talk about race, people say if we'd stop talking about it, it would go away, and that's like saying, oh, you have cancer, just stop talking about it, it'll go away. That's not how that works, because for many people, even if I never utter the word race or black or or minoritized or any, if I never, even if I never order, never utter those words. There are things that happen in my life from time to time that reminds me that I am not what is considered mainstream norm. Unfortunately, the audience can't see my hair, but I have locks which used to be called dreadlocks still is called, actually, a I only recognizes dreadlocks. No, that does not even recognize locks. So again, we're talking about norms. You know, my hairstyle is not recognized in in AI the word does not exist. But if you could, if you could see me audience, you would see that I had my locks braided up, which is not considered air quotes professional, because it's not a quote unquote. Neat hairstyle pulled away from my face.

I also have on large hoop earrings that I now wear in professional spaces because of AOC, and she was the first person, first politician, that I ever saw wearing red lips and a large earring, a large hoop earring, because those things are considered urban and not for professional spaces. So those are those that might be information that's completely new. Those might be things in your blind spot. You might not know that. Oh, wow, I have to consider wearing hoop earrings. Oh, my God, is that not professional in some places? No, it's not, and so that will be that will be, that would.

That is a very inane kind of a blind spot, but what usually happened. What's bigger is we don't understand what it's like to walk into. My son, for example, had the kind of weekends kind of hair, a kind of afro that was not not formed and not neat before we went to the middle there not neat again, quotations and people would look at him differently. You know, when he wore it with Kurt, when he put lots of product in it to make it curly and it fell, then he was just oh, he's so cute. But the other one was seen as threatening as, as you know, people in the neighborhood suddenly didn't recognize him and said he should go back to his own neighborhood, those kinds of things. So blind spots are those places that we don't realize we are reacting to something in our personal context and that way, the way that we're reacting, is usually causing some kind of biased interaction.

I was. There's a couple of things that I am really thinking about. You did a podcast where you featured your son and you just talked about I think he had a, he was having a birthday and some folks. If you go to the small bites podcast, we're going to make sure it's in the notes that you had like a five minute, six minute and sorry, and for folks these are really great, meaningful, very digestible, like five to six, seven minute like podcast.

But you talk. You talk about your son being an army and you know all that he has to you know, navigate and being a male of color in this world and actually also then making a decision to fight for this country right and serve in this way. But knowing that in some parts of the world or some parts of this country in the United States, that they may not be as kind, they may not be as accepting, they may not be as affirming to him because of some of those identities outside of him serving being a serviceman, I'm curious for you how has that awareness to him deciding to go into the army sharpened your advocacy of equity in classrooms, in schools and just not, you know, whether local or global? Yeah, I'm just really curious, especially since you just talked about it.

It's interesting that you would bring that up, because here's the deal. Everybody, I tend to be a bit of a pacifist. Yeah, let me be straight. I, in my perfect world you do not spend half the money on military and a slice of the pie on education. You know what I mean? I that that and I can't see how you can be pro life and then program those things. But I know this is this is not going to be a two day podcast, so let me ask. Let me get back to your question.

It could be. It could be a part one, part two.

Oh my god, so so. So with him, just with him deciding to join the during the military, I'm really in my journey being an parent of an adult person and that means that I don't get to choose. You know what I mean. I get to give input, I get to support, but I don't get to choose. So when he made that choice, it's I was, I was good. You know what I mean. I'm like I'm proud of you. I think this will be, you know it'll be good for you. These are the things you deal with anyway. Go for it.

But what was funny was people's reactions. Like I said, my, my, my world, my bubble, tends to be little pacifist and you know little green. And oh my god, he's going to the military. Aren't you scared, baby? I'm raising a black man in America. I'm not scared. He's more protected there and that's sad, but it's very true. You know what I mean. He has when he, when he travels on the road between base and home, he's got on his OCP. That means he's got on his camouflage, he's got his military ID, he's got his military go army sticker on his car. I feel some sense of protection in that, because a lot of the people who would possibly be not a lot, but some of the people who would possibly be against him are now pro him because he's a military and that gives him a quote unquote patriot edge, whereas just loving your country as a black civilian is sometimes not enough.

Thank you, it's it's I I don't know whether or not you know, depending on where people are definitely check out the podcast. I thought it was super heartfelt, as well as just your overview, as you think, about the freedoms that some people have the opportunity to experience, as well as the fact that we are still doing so much work. I'm not even going to talk about the current wars that are in place, but we have so much that's happening and we're also liberations and freedoms and liberties, and it's really tough. And then you look at the work that you do on that you're trying to then bring into school communities and states and districts that still are very restrictive, very focused on catch lines.

You you've been doing podcasts that talks about teacher K to K12. Teachers are not teaching CRT, like that's not actually what great teachers do? They teach our young people how to embrace humanity, how to embrace the ideas that we can all come from different backgrounds and different experiences, but still can come together and collaborate and create and enrich this very nation in ways that will advance us, and I don't want people to get lose sight of that. So I would say more, but I'm just saying, like, check out small bites. I think it's incredible, I think it's very friendly and I think that people will find so many things that resonate in their spirit because of the layers of of who you are and how they show up in your conversations.

And I think that's really important, craig, because we are the big thing I talk about. The overarching theme in finding your blind senses about us is and thems. You know, and here we are, my uncle and I. My uncle, and he's a Cowboys fan. I'm still a fan. We trash talked by text. All right, kristen, yes, sorry, sorry. There was some shout outs here. The child didn't see the trash.

Talk about the game, the games and the teams. You know, that's that's our thing. On game days, however, it's football, you know what I mean. There's literally only one winner, but in America there are no sides, people, there are just no sides. And so when we talk about these kinds of things and we talk about how politics divide us, we have to we.

That's a personal, it's some personal work that needs to be done, because if you don't realize that this is not Steelers and and Cowboys, this is not old school rivalries, this is all. We're all on the same team and unless we are willing to make some concessions and and ramp up our humanity and again, I say all sides on, in quotation marks because I am not a proponent of both side isms, that's not what I'm talking about, but I'm saying that on everybody side. We have a little work to do to realize that if, if we really want to be patriots and say one nation under God, then we have to say one nation and be on the side of the all of us. We have to, you know, we have to be on everybody side a little bit.

You just have to be, and that means sometimes teaching, that means sometimes tough love, but sometimes it just means really standing down and seeing how can you, how can you personally be a better human to the humans around you. And that's the part we seem to lose sight of so easily. And I don't know, I'm a little afraid of where, where from here, if we don't grasp that? You know there's no such things as these are patriots, they're not going to get in trouble for doing this things. These are not patriots, they're not going to get in trouble for doing these same things. So you know that patriotism means we all, we all on one team and we have to kind of get that.

So yeah, every yeah, so many things that you're saying are resonating with me on so many different levels. And no, you don't need to do that this, you're on this package Again. We need to get back to this video. She's like, oh, gonna zip my mouth that. No, it's this idea.

I think when you said we need to step down and it and not and step down, in that a friend of mine, megan Hauser, refers to it as like a both and mentality, not in either or and what you were reminding me that, as a social studies teacher, I was also not in favor of all of this money going to the military and so little for education. And I thought about all of these conflicts within the US and worldwide. And I would say that I am a. I support soldiers, I support our men and women who are fighting, I support veterans and you can do both. And a friend of mine also went on this Well, not a good friend, like an acquaintance, let's, let's be honest was like, well, I'm a patriot and I'm like wait, what, what does that even mean?

Like, can we just back it up here a little bit? And like, just because I don't have the same views doesn't mean that I don't love our country or that we don't have the same goals, and so I love that. You said, like let's find our common goals, moving forward, and what can bring us together, and so that part really resonated with me, that both and piece, and I'm talking. May I ask how old is your son?

He's 19. So he turned 18 and went the next day. And it's funny, he, because he grew up in my household, he shares, he shares my beliefs, and yet made this decision. And I said so tell me how you stand. This might really get to for real the answer to the question you asked and asked me, because I really answered something else, Greg.

But he said you know, mom, the thing about it, unfortunately, humans aren't good folk. They're not good folk a lot of the time. And if we would just play rock, because I always say why can't we just say all right to come to country leaders, they y'all have to have, yeah, y'all play chess, and whoever wins that they get, whatever it is y'all trying to get, you know, and we go back to kindergarten rules where if somebody else has the country, we don't go and take it. You know, it's your toy, I'm not going to take it, that's not my turn. So he said but unfortunately, mom, you've seen it, losers are not good losers. And what would happen is you would lose a chess game and then you would send out your strong people to go beat the other people up because you lost the chess game. And so we have to be prepared for that, because that's how people react and I thought how wise and sad.

My boys. My oldest is 22, and about to graduate from college, and my middle is almost 19,. I have a bonus son who's a senior and I also. What you said that resonated was that he's his own person, right, and so you do, at some point after, like kind of step back and let hope that we've created enough of a foundation for our boys and they've had lots of different types of friends in one year, when they were in middle school, one of the father said to me I bet you tell your kids that they're privileged, don't you?

I'm like yeah, actually I do. I do tell them that as white men they have a privilege in this country. I said you know? And he's like Well, what do you mean by that? And I'm like Well, first of all, as men they have some freedoms that I don't have as a woman. Like they can walk around sometimes at night and not be worried. I said, but and as a white man, they're probably not afraid of that?

I said but my friends who happen to be black, who have young men, are having different conversations around what that looks like, walking at night or driving a car, and so they are privileged to not have to think about this type of a thing and I want them to realize that the playing field isn't always level and they need to acknowledge that and be an advocate. And my 18 year old, when he was younger, when he was in ninth grade, said to me mom, I'm not sure if what I believe is what I actually believe or what you've raised me to believe, and I'm like that that's big. That's big. You're evolving and growing and the more experiences he's had outside of this town and in college, and like he's starting to form his own sense of self and that's making me really proud, because he's seeing some of the privileges that he's had and also some of the socioeconomic privileges that he hasn't had, you know, going to school. And so I think it's this evolution of acknowledging what the world is like for other people.

And.

I think that that is what what I'm taking from your conversations with your son and allowing him to grow and find his own way, but then also writing this book to help educators and parents and other people learn more about other people's perspectives and to become more aware of their own blind spots that they hadn't recognized before.

Yeah, that's huge, and you imagine your ninth grader was already thinking about things like that. Is this what I believe? Is this what you've taught me to believe? You know, and we want to raise critical thinkers. Those are the kind of conversations we want to be having in classrooms. Why do you believe what you believe?

Yeah, I mean it didn't always align with me, but I'm not going to like, I want to hear where are you getting this from? Tell me what's driving your thinking. What experiences have you had? Where are you hearing this? And, craig, I heard you say, and I'm too, so I'm wondering like what is resonating with you. You know it's hard not to just like jump in and be like no, but oh, my God, yes.

So much of this. There's so many things that I think about. I think about Maya Angelou, who I feel like, is my. She's the godmother I you know, like the bonus godmother I've wanted. When she just situates life on like love liberates, right if you, if you can just love the next person next to you In whatever they bring, outside of what you have been conditioned to believe and understand, about people who carry difference and just see them free. This person right here has a heartbeat. They have their own dreams and aspirations. They have their own concerns about well-being and those around them and that in some way, they're just trying to figure out one more moment, one more win, one more discovery to make them a better human being on their journey. I even think about Brene Brown, and I love the quote about.

You know, I want to be in an arena where I could be brave and fight the good fights and you know, sometimes we're gonna get our butts kicked in the process. But we have to choose courage. Encourage is saying alright, I'm going to be completely vulnerable in this space and just really avail myself. Like Krista, you shared some insights today and just say, hey, you know I do carry some privileges. I do too. Craig Martin, craig Aaron's Martin has carries privileges as well in this world, because I'm a US citizen. I am actually six foot three, I happen to be dark, complexed, I am a man who has a considerable size and cornbread fit, and I understand that those things get me into spaces. I have my limbs and my mental capacities to the degree that life will allow me, but I carry that every day that I walk into a space, and it's not lost on me that I carry that with me and I think about every day. Well, what's the one new thing I'm gonna explore to make me better, make me stronger, because I want to have even more enhanced relationships with folks, even those who are not on the same.

I'm not on the fence with you in regards to your belief systems or just where you're thinking is, but I think that you're a great human being, and so I'm curious how do we create an environment that feels brave enough for our young people, their teachers and caregivers to actually situate and just have conversations?

How do we get people to a place where they can have conversations that may be heated because we just believe what we believe, but be able to open ourselves up to someone else's perspective, someone else's thinking to get that, aha, like, ah, that's okay. Now I have better understand why you feel that way. Or, okay, we may agree to disagree and that's okay, we can still go and have a cup of coffee, we can still eat, you know, enjoy pizza. But we may not actually share the same ideals on something. So I'm just curious, hedrick, how do we situate today's environment to have courageous conversations? How do we situate it that people can tap into a lot of the tools you share in your taxes, in your conversations, in your children's books, so that we actually may have a fighting chance at a better world that we live in?

You know what everything is taught and we approach school like academics are the only important things and we don't teach interpersonal relationships at all. You know the whole SEL thing is also now booked under CRT and wokeism etc. Etc. And that's so sad because we don't learn anything. Where are we supposed to learn about how to have relationships, how to have conversations, and so really in school.

I know for me, and when I was in the classroom, it was important to me to lay a strong foundation of we are a community. We are. We don't have to go on vacation with each other, but for the 90 minutes that we are in here we are supportive of one another. We don't all agree all the time, but we don't make we don't make each other feel stupid for asking questions. We don't. You know, and I was really like you can get away with a lot of things. You know kids says F bomb, you're gonna get redirected. A kid calls another kid an idiot, then we're gonna have a conversation, then I'm stopping. I'm stopping instruction, so setting parameters.

You know we treat school like oh well, just kids. You know kids bully, that's always, it's always been like that, but it's not, it's never been good. You know what I mean. And so let's first of all make sure that we are really doing the things to make the kind of culture, to have the kind of cultures that we want on our campuses no, to have the kind of cultures we want to see in community, that we build that among the kids that are on our campuses and among staffs that are on our campuses and then teach, teach, disagreeing. Actually, I wrote on. There's an Edutopia article, if you want to link it here that talks about having civil discussions. I start with playing this or that every day. Who's vanilla chocolate, twix or no?

no Takis or hot cheetos you know just those things that are important to my kids sausage or bacon and they can get, quote, unquote, heated about sausage or bacon, you know what I mean. Or breakfast waffles or pancakes. You know, if you have a Muslim community, you might want to stay for what? Stay away from the port? But you know you have pancakes or waffles and people get really indignant about which one is better, and that's a good thing. And so you have those conversations on a regular basis and then you talk about something that happened today oh, did y'all see that? So on. So I read this. Did y'all want to read the article? Let's look at it. Hey, what do you think now?

And then put up sentence stems, the way you do when you, when you ask kids to get feedback, you put up sentence stems. Or you say I like this, but or yes, and or I agree with this, because I disagree with this, because teach those skills. And then when they get to fifth sixth grade, fourth, fifth sixth grade, and they start seeing things that are happening in the world, then you can say hey, guys, this is really a difficult situation, but I want us to be able to talk about it. How many of you come from a household and talk about politics. I mean, I don't hide my politics, because if they ask, I want to be able to give an answer, but then they can see that I'm still neutral. No, actually I've voted this way in the last election. But this is what I think about both sides of the aisle. This is what I think about this particular issue. You know that I can see from this side. This is what they want. I can see from the other side.

And then there's a sting song that I like to play. It's called Russians. I don't know if you know it, and in Europe there's an American. I pulled it up. In Europe and America there's a growing feeling of hysteria. This song is probably 20 years old. Conditioned to respond to all threats in the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets, mr Khrushchev says we will bury you.

I don't subscribe to his point of view. It would be such an ignorant thing to do if the Russians love their children too, and then they go on to say the Russians love their children too. That you know, like you said before, everybody is really trying to do the next best thing. They may be misguided in how they choose to approach it, but nobody's doing stuff, to just be very few people or doing things just because they're evil and they just want something bad to happen to you. There are some, but in some way they're trying to have a better world for their kids and so if we meet each other there in the classroom, okay.

Well, johnny's parents don't believe that. Susie, your parents believe something different. Tell us how that is for you. Why do you guys think your parents believe that? Is it close to what you believe? Is it different from what you believe? How could you get your parents to sit down and have a conversation at a dinner table and not fight? How would you solve the problem and then find a problem that they can really solve and let them write their congressmen and they probably got more smarts than most of the people in Washington. So let them develop those skills in our classroom Again. Start with Pats, start with pancakes and waffles and build from there.

I love that so much and we have such, I think, similar philosophies about the way that the classrooms work. There was really nothing that was off limits in the classroom, but it was it's parameters around how we're going to have this conversation, not around what we're going to say. And I do think you know when the students would ask me when we talk about politics, we'd say it's not just, we try to simplify everything into a box You're this or you're that, and it's really not like that at all. And so really trying to break that open and letting students know when they would say, well, what do you think I would tell them, but I would also treat them respectfully if they didn't believe that. And it's really modeling how to have those conversations and how to respectfully disagree with someone.

And sometimes I would say you know what I don't want to tell you because I don't want to taint your point of view. I know some of you really like me and you want to hear my point of view. I'm not going to give it to you. On this one, I want you guys to talk about it. And there was a abortion, was a conversation, and I did not think that mine needed to be in the mix and but the kids wanted to have a conversation about it and they did, and they did well.

Yep, and I think that it's reminding me of a conversation we had with Matt Kay and Jen Orr when they were talking about how do you get the students to have conversations where the teachers, the facilitator, where it's more of the kids talking to each other and the teacher kind of steps back and so the kids are not conversing through the teacher, but they're really leading that conversation, and so that's what I'm hearing. I'm taking those pieces from you as well, and how can we and you really laid out step by step what teachers can be doing in their classrooms?

And really Socratic. Seminar is wonderful for that. Having a talking stick is a great thing, having student facilitators because my my last few years of teaching were really me sitting back in a chair with my arms behind my head, and I say I mean that literally I worked the least. The better I got, the less I worked Because, no, I don't change the dates on my classroom. No, look in your agenda and put the new timeline up. No, you got this So-and-so take attendance. No, john, no, we're going to facilitate a. You feel good about this? Do you feel strongly about this? Ok, well, you facilitate the conversation. Ensure that everybody speaks. And they did that's. You know those, those, those are, those are things, especially by sixth grade. Honestly, if you are still doing everything in your classroom, you're doing your kids a disservice because they're the ones who are going to run the world, and what better place to teach them is? You know, you get to guide them. So that's.

I carry similar philosophy. My principles used to come in and they would go in on the days that the sub was there, because they knew like, ok, let me see how it's going, because Ms Martin's never really gone. So if for folks who might, may or may not know, I didn't take off time when I transition out of my role in Boston, I had a full year worth of lead. But in regards to my students, my students knew like, like, you just shared, they took the attendance, they, they put the objectives up on the board, they had their morning work. They knew, ok, this is my do now. They had a project list. They knew.

So it wasn't like, well, what are we going to do? You already know because we've set the tone, we set the behaviors, the actions. You know the consequences. Well, whether or not you get it accomplished or not, you know how to facilitate conflict.

You know who to talk to, to tap somebody in and say, well, this is too tough for just us because we're emotionally involved in this conversation, the way that's not productive. Here is up, here's our peer mediator to help us, or here's the adult that we feel safe with to bring in and help us to navigate things and when you get to a place where kids have a sense of agency because they know the routines and they are like taught it as leaders, but also when you give them the language, like you talked about since and starters, you giving them options, you providing them with space where other students can also share their perspective and giving them here's good questions you could ask and that comes through literacy. I did expeditionary learning for a number of years and there's really great question stems that you can tap into with just creating a community where folks can navigate and rest through the good stuff and the tough stuff.

So I love that One of my favorites, connie Hamilton, hacking questions. If you have hard time generating questions or getting your kids to to respond to more than I was, more than I don't know, that's a good one.

Yeah. What do you feel is your superpower at this point?

Oh my God, I have so many.

You're not. You're not shy at all.

I said, you know? I said mommy is my superpower. And it's funny because, like in my classroom, my favorite phrase was don't make me have to pull out my mean mommy voice, and you know what? No, I will tell you what I think. My superpower is empathy, and there is a it's not even a fine line between both both side ism and empathy. But empathy is necessary on both sides. And I say that simply because I often imagine what it's like to be a white male in America these days. You know what I mean.

It does not matter that I have been on the receiving end of oppression, that's something else. You know what I mean. That's I have to be able to put that aside and look at if I want, if I want a white guy to understand one who's one, who is a verse to any of this work I want them to understand. I also have to understand what their pain is like, or at least have an idea that there is some kind of pain involved. And I don't. I'm an only child so I don't know it well, but I do. I have seen my friends tell their older sibling they're going to get a new sibling and seen them, like one of my friends, little girls sat in the middle of their bed and use the bathroom and said, see, you don't need a new baby, I'm your baby. Oh, wow, and that, that reaction to this new creature, dethrone in me. It's probably what it's like to be a white guy in America these days, and while that does not negate any of the fact that most of my suffering has also happened at the hands of white males, it is the only way that I can bridge to them to understand. I see your pain too, you know, because it's not that, it's not there. You know what I mean. If the affirmative action, they really do feel like, hey, somebody is taking my position, somebody's taking my place, I'm being replaced. Replacement theory has the people who advocate for replacement theory you have to look that up. We don't have that kind of time. That's really huge. They've done a good job to make people feel that way, and so I have to acknowledge that those feelings exist.

When I talk to people about my own pain and my own impressions and the historical oppression of communities, of people who look like me, and that's why I say it's not both sidesism, but the empathy to understand, even when somebody is doing something wrong, what are they feeling? It's the thing that we do with our students. We try to see the context, not just what the kid did. We try to understand. Oh, you know what? Johnny's mama just walked out and left and he's living with grandma now and grandma can't see and blah, blah, blah. That's why Johnny's acting out.

Those kinds of things are important in these conversations. So I think the ability to see that through my own historical trauma, my own historical, the events that have led me to this work, I think that's my superpower. And to create a space for people to say I'm not there yet, I just can't, and to be able to let that go and to talk to the people who can, who are at a place where they may have never thought about this work before, but they're willing to be able to deal with both with empathy and compassion.

Can you come back on again please, because I have so many more questions, things that I want to dig into and get your thoughts around. Can we please? I know Craig was probably like he knew we were going to be able to go for multiple hours here, but I would hope that you'd be willing to come back on again because I would love. I love your response to that and I'll be honest, sometimes I still struggle and I lose patience with people sometimes who are not willing to engage or at least be open to seeing new perspectives, and so I really appreciate what you've said, because I think I have a lot of patience for children and for youth, because I'm like you know what we're still molding and growing, and I have a little bit less for adults, because I feel like there is, but I know deep in my heart that that is not the best way.

I mean it's even if there are moments that I'm very impatient I have people for that. I have people for my impatient moments. But my overarching goal is I do not want my child's children to be saying the same thing about the classrooms that they're sitting in, like my son said the same thing about class that I said, and we're really two generations apart. I don't want that, and so my overarching goal is to do what I need to do to reach people. You know what I mean? And the people who need reaching the most are the people who are adverse to this work, because they are so often still in power and still guiding the systems that we need to disrupt. So that's kind of if you can put that over the patience part, that's the goal. Just keep seeing the goal. Keep seeing the goal, baby. It's the goal.

Well, you mentioned about you reaching out to people, so how can people reach out to you? What are the best ways that people can get ahold of you?

H-E-D-R-E-I-C-H. That's how you spell my name. I said H-E-D-R-E-I-C-H. If you can remember that, then you can find me, because it's Hedrick on Twitter, it's Hedrick on LinkedIn. It's Hedrick on Instagram. It's Hedrick on Facebook, Even though I'm never there. It's Hedrick on TikTok. So yeah, Perfect. Our website is hedrickcom for small bites.

Yes, Thank you. We're going to link all of this so if you're actually on a computer, on your phone, you can go click on all of these links. We'll have access to your book, to your Ejitopia articles, to the Sting Song, to Connie Hamilton's Hacking Questions, and I sincerely hope that we can continue this conversation because I would love to learn more from you again.

Any time, any time. This was a wonderful conversation. Thank you all for the work you're doing. I appreciate it.

Well, S-E-L-A-E-D-U family. I'm standing up, I'm just standing up and I've danced, I've shimmied, I just want to run around. There's like when you experience what can feel profound in conversation. But you're in great company to have these conversations and I still think that we could go into a deeper view to really unpack some of the deeper layers. But till we come back again because Craig is rambling and he does that from time to time Ha ha, ha, ha ha. I want, we want to wish all of you a wonderful and incredible 2024. Maybe 2024 is centered on just one loving your humanity and all that you bring to the table and opening yourself up to just peering a little bit more into someone else's To just understand, like not just your blind spot but be able to help them to navigate theirs as well.

But until then, hold yourself tight and all right, curves and all, and we will love you soon and see you on the other side of the SEL light. We love you, Take care.