070: Redefining Education through Deeper Learning with Dr. Scott McLeod

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Welcome to SEL in EDU, the podcast where we explore how educators bring social, emotional learning to life by sharing stories, strategies and sparks of inspiration.

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I'm your host, Dr Krista Lay, owner of Resonance Education.

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Thank you for joining us on this SEL journey on this SEL journey.

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I'm Brian Carpenter, host of Fresh Art 5, part of the Education Podcast Network.

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Just like the show you're listening to now, Shows on the network are individually owned and opinions expressed may not reflect others.

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Find other interesting education podcasts at edupodcastnetworkcom.

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Hello SEL and EDU family.

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Today I am here with my friend, Dr Scott McLeod.

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Scott is a professor of educational leadership at the University of Colorado, Denver.

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He works with schools and educators worldwide and is on a mission to make students' day-to-day learning less boring, more meaningful and relevant.

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Scott, I'm going to kick it off by welcoming you and also asking would you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert?

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Oh, what a wonderful question.

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Hi, I'm actually pretty introverted, so I do a lot of public speaking and that's all great and I really enjoy that.

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And as soon as it's over, like I got to go hide right and decompress and read and chill out.

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And you know, I think that's the very definition of an introvert, is that you know it's how you recharge, not necessarily how you present to the public.

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So Absolutely.

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And I've been listening to the book the introvert advantage and just getting some insights.

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I'm like, yes, yes, yes, this is me and the reason I ask.

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I have one more question for you when was the last time that you can think of that?

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Maybe you stretched yourself out of like your normal introverted frame and were like, okay, I'm going to try something and I promise you this is related to a story I'm going to share.

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Yeah, sure, no problem.

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Well, probably most recently.

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I mean, like I just got back from China and I was in Guangzhou and I hopped on the subway and you know, unlike a lot of other countries, like very little in China is labeled in English, so you know, other than the translation app, but you're kind of on your own and so just really proud of myself for hopping on the subway, navigating myself successfully to several different neighborhoods, you know, navigating those physical spaces and people spaces successfully and making it back to my hotel, right, like all those things.

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It was good, it was good for me.

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Yeah, I can so relate and feel that, being in a new space and then not necessarily having the language and just trying to navigate all the things.

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The reason I bring this up is because I have to share the story with the listening audience and you probably know where I'm going with this, but you might not have heard this part.

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You're like no, maybe not.

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But as soon as I started my doctoral program I think it was 2013, I guess a couple of years after that I was out in Denver for the UCEA conference and I remember looking up and seeing your name in the program and I'm like huh, and I, for some reason, I was like, oh, look on social media.

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I'm like oh, we have some friends in common.

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I am very much an introvert.

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I can hide in conferences and just be the learner, soak it all up, go back to my room and not talk to anybody, and it's not because I don't want to learn, but just because that's my comfort.

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And I'm like you know what?

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I'm going to step out of my comfort zone.

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I am going to message this gentleman and like see if he wants to meet up for a cup of coffee.

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So I sent you a message and I'm like hey, we, I noticed we have some friends in common in different organizations.

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I'd love to get you a cup of coffee and just meet you.

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You were so gracious and so nice.

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You're like yes, I can meet here at this time.

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And we met up.

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You even offered to buy my coffee, which I would not let you do.

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I bought yours and we sat down and we talked.

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And then, the more we talked, I'm like, oh my, you are in charge of the conference.

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I knew your name.

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And I'm like OK, why did that?

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Because I remember geeking out over the did you know?

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Video way back in like 2007.

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I showed it to all of the staff at the high school and the middle school I worked in.

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We need to be on top of all of this and help our students and change our practice.

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And I'm like we need to be on top of all of this and help our students and change our practice.

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And so I say this story to let the listening audience know that not only are you one of the smartest people I know, but the kindest, because you just took the time.

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You are so nice and willing to share, and I'm like, had I known who you were, I would never have messaged you.

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And I'm so glad that I did, but wow, I look back on it.

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And I'm so glad that I did, but wow, I look back on it and I'm flushed now even sharing that.

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Well, you're very gracious, krista, and I appreciate that you did, because I am very grateful for our friendship ever since.

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So, and it's been really fun to stay in touch with you.

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Yeah, thank you.

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And another story I want to share is that while I was a grad assistant at Lehigh, they wanted to delve deeper into technology use and thinking about new ways of shifting learning for students, and so while I was there, I was the grad assistant for the school study council.

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So 40 superintendents and central office staff.

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You gave an idea for me.

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You had them all play the dude game.

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Do you remember that?

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Would you mind?

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Can you share for people just about what the dude card game is?

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Yeah, so dude is a set of cards.

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It's a game of some kind, like a border card game.

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I think you can still get it at Target, but definitely online, and what it does is it has different pictures or ways of people saying dude.

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So there's like a surfer and there's like a pizza chef dude and there's like a ghost dude and whatever.

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And when you have a large group, it's really fun to just pass out dude cards face down and then they have to go find their other dudes by making the sound that they think their card makes and of course, they're all saying dude in slightly different ways, which makes it really hard, but it's also really really funny.

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So check out the dude cards and the more dude cards.

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They're great ways to interact with large groups and get them into smaller groups.

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And it was so amazing to see these normally like, very like, okay, we're listening, we're sitting Professionals get up and start to mingle with each other, and they just broke into laughter and you could just feel the whole room shift to and relax, and so I always associate that with you, with being able to take a room full of 100 central office staff and just get them reconnected and smiling with each other again, which your phrase is make school less boring and I think that was a perfect example of that.

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Thanks, yeah, just continually working on ways to get people together in community large groups, small groups and getting them into rich, robust discussions, and maybe that's coming out and you just got done working with and collecting data from your 45th school.

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Could you share with people about deeper learning and what that means for educators and students?

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Yeah, absolutely so.

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I tell people I'm on a quest to make school less boring and more relevant for students, and you know, when we talk about deeper learning, which is kind of like a big movement these days, you know everybody has their own definitions.

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The schools that I'm working with are really leaning pretty hard into four big shifts.

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The first shift is around cognitive complexity.

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How do we get kids moving beyond mere factual recall and procedural regurgitation and do that really higher level critical thinking and problem solving work that we need them to do as they live on the upper end of blooms or, you know, around the wheel on webs or you know, however you define it.

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Second shift is really around student agency and ownership and voice and choice.

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How can we let them drive more of their own learning, which has significant engagement and motivation benefits but also allows us to personalize and individualize and differentiate in ways that the one-size-fits-all model doesn't?

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The third shift is really around real-world authenticity.

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So how do we get kids connected to relevant communities outside of the school building so that they find meaning and relevance in their work in a different way, instead of asking why do we need to know this?

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And those communities can be local or online or global.

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There's lots of sort of ways to connect kids, but seeing kids engaged in outside communities and making a difference in being impact makers and change makers is really really powerful.

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And then, finally, that fourth shift is just a shift from analog to digital, like we need students to be technology literate, we need them to be information fluent and you know it's not just tech for tech's sake, as you know, but really how do we use technology to make those first three shifts happen?

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And there's just things that kids can do with tech that they can't do in more analog spaces.

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So really thinking about technology as an empowering and liberating force, not just as a controlling or negative force.

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So a lot of the attention around deeper learning has been happening at the secondary level.

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People are really concerned about college and career readiness and sort of future life success.

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You hear a lot of conversations around durable skills.

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These days, school districts and individual schools are coming up with learner profiles or profiles of a graduate, trying to figure out how to operationalize all those.

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And the space that I'm living in is really sort of like how do we translate sort of your rhetoric?

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Like you say that we have this new set of skills and competencies that we want kids and graduates to have.

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How do you operationalize those on a day-to-day basis so that you don't have just a shiny poster on the wall but school still looks like 1974, right, but most of those conversations are happening at the high school.

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We're looking at career pathways and credit recovery and everybody's worried about upper adolescence.

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So I've done some work in that area, but spent has spent the last two years visiting elementary and middle schools to really unpack what deeper learning looks like in grades K through eight.

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So over the last two years have visited 45 schools all around the country and also made a trip to Reggio Emilia to sort of see what their early childhood philosophy looks like in action on site, and it's just been really great.

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So I'm just trying to pull all those thoughts together and hopefully get that book out the door sometime this spring.

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Pretty excited about that deeper learning in elementary and middle schools project, I also have a second book that's nearly done, which I think will be interesting to you, because it's around the intersections between deeper learning and also sort of like equity principles, and so what we're finding is that a lot of the main ideas and concepts in deeper learning overlap significantly with major concepts from other sort of child empowering frameworks.

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So, for example, if you take the circle of what's in deeper learning and you look at the circle of culturally responsive pedagogy, like there's significant overlap in that Venn diagram.

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So we're writing different chapters that sort of not only describe what deeper learning is but then connect it to other things that schools are trying to do.

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So, like there's a culturally responsive pedagogy chapter, there's a democratic education chapter, there's a CTE chapter, there's an indigenous education chapter, there's an SEL chapter, right.

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So where we're trying to help people see that you know, maybe you're not thinking a lot about deeper learning, you're thinking about one of those other things, right.

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Like how can we create more culturally responsive classrooms, right?

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Or we're leaning hard into SEL and, by the way, deeper learning is an ideal mechanism to achieve a lot of that.

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So really excited for that book.

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That book should be done, probably no later than March.

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I'm excited to get that one out the door too.

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That's amazing and if you're listening, this podcast is going to be coming out in a couple of weeks, but we'll come back and put the link in there for you so you can purchase the book with a one click.

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I love how you're seeing those connections with deeper learning and equity and SEL.

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I think that in the moment, many educators feel pulled in different directions and they're not seeing it as a both and and.

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It's very much siloed.

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Sometimes that goes up even to the central office area where people are right across the hall from each other but really don't have the opportunities to sit in dialogue and talk about where that crossover is happening.

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I'm wondering, as you're doing the work at the elementary level, where are you seeing some of the barriers to people moving to more of a deeper learning shift, where those four pieces are being highlighted?

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Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest barriers just are deeply embedded mindset of what school should look like, right?

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So if you go to any random person on the street and say the word school, a whole host of images pop into mind, right, and they usually have something along the lines of the teachers at the front of the room transmitting information, while kids sit relatively passively and listening and watching.

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Maybe the day is broken up into small chunks of time.

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Kids might even move rooms.

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There might be bells, there are textbooks, there are standardized quizzes and tests and assessments, right, like there's this whole set of things.

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The room might be arranged in rows, like you know, like there's all this stuff that Tyke and Cuban have called the grammar of schooling.

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That goes down hard kicking and screaming, right as we try to think about what new models of learning and teaching would look like.

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So you know, when we're starting to talk about things, like you know, traditional classrooms weren't meant to be inclusive of every child, and now we're talking about how can we be inclusive of every child, we run smack up against that grammar of schooling.

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Traditional schooling has not concerned itself too much with the whole child.

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It's mostly concerned itself with cognitive rigor and getting kids to again master factual recall and low level procedures.

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And now, all of a sudden, we have this whole other set of sort of like ways to be a good human being, right, and ways to interact with each other, and you know all this stuff in the CASEL framework and you know all this other, these other things that are in the durable skills frameworks that employers are screaming for, and again, schools just weren't designed for a lot of that.

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And so we see these mismatches right.

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So we'll see schools try to adhere really tightly to that traditional grammar of schooling, but then, oh yeah, we also need to do.

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Sel comes, is they try to shoehorn it into a 25-minute advisory period block or homeroom block once a week with some vendor-provided curriculum that they bought right, instead of recognizing that for this to truly be effective, it has to be integrated into every fiber of how we operate and how we interact and live and be with each other right, and so you know, I think that's where we see the Mitch message, right, right, it's not just deeper learning or SEL, it's that we have all this stuff that we're trying to do.

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That's not a fit with the traditional grammar of schooling, and instead of trying to change school.

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We try to just try to squeeze it in in some half-assed way and then, you know, pat ourselves on the back for doing something, even though it's ineffective.

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And it feels more like checking the boxes.

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And well, we do this but, like you said, to what degree and who is it really serving?

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Yeah, I do some curriculum design for school, support them in that, and it's not the lesson planning, it's not.

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That, to me, is the art of teaching.

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But if they're looking to create a standards-based curriculum where the teachers are having a similar starting framework and then they can personalize it and decide what that looks like and how they want to assess students, we had some great conversations with the central office curriculum team around curriculum theory and curriculum models and they brought up some points around how federal funding and ranking and all of that is influences very heavily what they feel they can do and cannot do to best support their students.

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And when we're talking about equity, especially especially in PA, where I'm well, I'm not in PA right now, I'm actually in South Jersey, but where I was there's school districts that are, incredibly, it's not equitable in terms of the state funding, and so you can have a very wealthy school district next to one that's struggling financially, and so not only are you having different resources and different approaches, but they're working on how can we check off the boxes to be able to get the funding to best support our students.

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Yeah, no, absolutely, and I recognize that resources are a significant concern, but a lot of this is just our own decision making and ownership of our own processes, right?

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So you know, I think one of the reasons I gravitate towards these deeper learning schools is because, you know, they're significantly inquiry-based and project-based, which means that kids are working on complex things together for long blocks of time, right, which of course, requires that they exhibit and have success in most of the SEL skills articulated in the CASEL framework, right?

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Whereas, you know, in a more traditional elementary, middle, comprehensive high school, whatever, right?

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Like you know, for all of our rhetoric around saying that kids need to be, you know, good members of a team, they need to practice collaborative problem solving, they need to have cultural competency, they need to be able to have strong relationships with each other, like, the day-to-day work doesn't require it.

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Like, if what you're mostly doing is asking kids to complete digital worksheets and do practice problems from the textbook and whatever.

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Like, there's no space for that SEL stuff that we allegedly say is important, right, and we're not creating the curricular space for those things to happen.

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Like, when is a kid gonna practice good relationship skills if they never interact with another kid.

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They're mostly interacting with the assignment and the content and the teacher right so, and we're not willing to sort of critically interrogate our practice and sort of confront those rhetoric reality gaps in our own sort of, you know, gaps between what we say we value and what we actually do.

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When you were working with the schools that were really focused on the deeper learning, what were some of the things they were doing?

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that quote got it right oh, they invest heavily, heavily, heavily in relationships and sort of being with each other.

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Right, so you might see a deeper learning school.

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They might not do any content for the first couple weeks school.

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All they're doing is getting people connected and grounded in community right and introducing students and building fluency with interaction structures and collaboration structures that allow them to do productive work right Before they even touch a piece of content right, they might spend 30 to 45 minutes at the beginning of every day just touching base, catching up, doing stupid stuff that looks foolish from the outside but actually bonds us together through silliness and vulnerability.

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And you know, they might preserve another 20 minutes at the end of the day just to do a check-in again on the way out to make sure that everybody's okay on their way home before they come back tomorrow.

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And you know, if you talk to a regular school, they're like we don't have time for that.

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We don't have time for an hour a day on relationships and we can't give up the first two weeks of each semester or each school year to do that.

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Right, Like we've got content to cover, we've got pacing guides, we've got test scores that we're worried about, and the dumb stuff is that you know most of these schools that are doing this work.

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They're also accountable under the same state mandates and accountability frameworks.

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You just think about it completely differently, right?

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And kids love it there, right?

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Kids at these schools are so happy, usually because they feel validated, they feel loved, they feel cared for and, yes, they also do the content.

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I'm so excited to hear this because, yes, sel is embedded in everything we say, we think, we do.

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We're not asking you to not do a science lab or to not have students critically analyze a document or compare the book to the movie, or, but just to elevate the skills that they're using during those conversations, during the thinking how are they, what are they noticing they can contribute and what are the strengths in the other people that they can rely on?

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And so it's how SEL is embedded and highlighting that for the students.

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And when I think about, too, the relationship piece and the timing piece, I'm still seeing the struggles that you were saying, even at the high school level, with.

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I have to cover this and thinking about well, how can we give opportunities for people to get to know each other?

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And again, it's not just the teacher-student relationship that you picked up on, but it's how are we letting students have those conversations and get to we'll get to know each other first, so they could feel comfortable having those conversations, because learning something is vulnerable, as you said, to be able to say I don't know about that or let me give my best shot, but I'm not sure how it's going to turn out and to create that safe space of belonging.

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And you touched on, you talked about the equity piece and I think that's where that belonging piece really fits in is.

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Does every student feel they are seen, valued and heard?

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Right, and you know there's been a lot of talk lately about the pedagogical triangle, right, and it's this idea that there's three points in the relationship curriculum, teacher and student right, but none of that recognizes that there are other students that should be part of that equation.

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Right, like it's conceived as a relationship between an individual student, the teacher and the content.

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And this whole conception of the pedagogical triangle ignores the community, right, it ignores the fact that we're surrounded by other human beings who are powerful learning resources and also powerful learning opportunities.

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Right, and so, you know, whenever I hear somebody talk about sort of like the pedagogical triangle, you know, my very first question is well, yeah, what about the other people in the room Right?

00:22:09.161 --> 00:22:11.548
And that's the part that we seem to very willingly ignore.

00:22:14.141 --> 00:22:21.007
One of the other pieces or questions that I'd like to ask you about is when you talked about the first shift with the higher level of learning.

00:22:21.007 --> 00:22:22.269
I love the word rigor.

00:22:22.269 --> 00:22:23.192
I used to hate it.

00:22:23.192 --> 00:22:43.384
I like it and this idea that teachers feel that they have to move up in blooms or around that web's depth of knowledge, which actually I have been learning too recently, isn't actually a circle or it really shouldn't be put into that circle, but why not go in with it with a?

00:22:43.384 --> 00:23:04.766
What do you already know about this and how can you support each other so kind of the inquiry learning you were talking about, that kids don't have to memorize facts to be able to grapple with a more rigorous content and be able to bounce ideas and have those critical learning conversations with one another.

00:23:05.887 --> 00:23:09.260
Yeah, I tend to use the word vigor instead of rigor.

00:23:09.601 --> 00:23:18.143
The word rigor has been co-opted by the buckle down and absorb a bunch of content folks, right?

00:23:18.303 --> 00:23:41.383
And so you know everybody who's really leaning hard into the traditional model of education, and I think the kid's job at schools is just to absorb a bunch of facts and a bunch of procedures and then, you know, exhibit them back in some teacher approved way that has turned out to be sort of you know, the primary definition of how rigor often gets used in schools, right?

00:23:41.383 --> 00:23:53.375
So we talk about, you know, ap courses, for example, because they squeeze more content into a shorter period of time, and you know we courses, for example, because they squeeze more content into a shorter period of time, and you know we're basically cramming more stuff into the time block.

00:23:53.375 --> 00:23:56.328
That it's, you know, allegedly more rigorous, right?

00:23:56.328 --> 00:24:07.299
And I think what we're seeing from deeper learning schools, from elite independent schools who are walking away from that rigor paradigm, is that what they're really looking for is vigor.

00:24:07.299 --> 00:24:21.130
They're looking for energizing, empowering, robust learning experiences that allow kids to go deeply on stuff, that go deep on stuff that matters, which is a very different paradigm than simply sprinting even faster through low level stuff.

00:24:21.130 --> 00:24:21.813
Right.

00:24:21.932 --> 00:24:31.829
And so just because the word rigor has been co-opted, iopted, I think the word vigor tends to have sort of like a more vital, robust meaning for me and some others.

00:24:32.010 --> 00:24:41.028
So thank you, and you dropped me a link that I'm also going to put into the session notes the episode notes on rigor or vigor.

00:24:41.281 --> 00:24:42.319
What do we want for our children?

00:24:42.520 --> 00:24:50.548
And so I am going to adopt vigor from now on, because I do think that it lands differently with people and I don't have to explain.

00:24:50.650 --> 00:24:56.385
Well, I don't mean rigor, as in having to start here and get there and it's a filling of a bucket.

00:24:56.385 --> 00:25:24.167
It reminds me I'm working on curriculum design with a school out in Pittsburgh that is creating an opening in entrepreneurship, high school starting in September, and we've been talking about equity and what we can do to break down the barriers for AP and honors courses, and we were talking about embedded honors and I'm curious if this is something that you've heard about.

00:25:24.167 --> 00:25:34.214
Thought about that we're offering different pathways within the same class, that if people students opt into the honors level, they can do that.

00:25:34.214 --> 00:25:41.744
If other students in the class are like, hey, I'm interested in that topic or that's really cool, I'd like to learn more.

00:25:41.744 --> 00:25:54.709
They can navigate and we're still working out pieces, but they can navigate in and out throughout the year to determine what is the best fit for them and not feel that kids are oh, they're the honors kids sectioned off in some other room.

00:25:55.441 --> 00:26:05.288
Right, yeah, my wife jokes that when she went to high school there were 13 different English 11 classes and you could be English one or English 13.

00:26:06.230 --> 00:26:07.813
Right, like that's some serious tracking.

00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:13.412
So, yeah, I'm all for kids having pathways and choices and options Right.

00:26:13.451 --> 00:26:23.830
And I love the fact that you know those choices might even be smaller and granular, week to week or month to month, not like I have to make a decision for the entire year right now, right.

00:26:23.830 --> 00:26:36.372
So I think all of those are really great, so that students can sort of figure out what makes sense for me in terms of what I'm interested in, what I'm passionate about, where I think I might gain some value, where I might grow as a learner or as a person Right.

00:26:36.372 --> 00:26:47.271
And maybe that doesn't mean committing to an entire year long AP or honors course, but it might be opting into certain experiences that really feel resonant to you or meaningful to you.

00:26:47.271 --> 00:26:48.765
So I love all of that.

00:26:48.765 --> 00:27:08.701
I think that you know we fall into these traps of you know sorting kids, right, and other people want us to sort children, and I think schools have to think really hard about is our job really to sort kids for other people or do we have a different, bigger mission that we should be leaning into.

00:27:09.384 --> 00:27:11.730
When you think about the schools that you've worked with.

00:27:11.730 --> 00:27:21.885
There might be some listeners who are like I wish my school would be like this, but maybe they're feeling overwhelmed by the systemic pieces of this.

00:27:21.885 --> 00:27:25.692
What would you suggest for teachers at any level?

00:27:25.692 --> 00:27:47.121
That is something that's very actionable for them to do in their own classrooms to start working towards those shifts for their students learning community.

00:27:47.141 --> 00:27:55.667
We have networks of deeper learning schools like Big Picture and the New Tech Network and High Tech High and so on, that are sharing a lot of really great stuff and help us see what vigorous learning possibilities might be for kids and teachers.

00:27:55.667 --> 00:28:08.733
Second is you know, if you're ready to do full-blown project-based learning and make sort of larger leaps in your instruction, where you're ready to maybe turn things over to kids for three, four, five weeks at a time, that's great, go for it.

00:28:08.733 --> 00:28:18.119
I'm finding that most educators in schools are not at that step and need to somehow take smaller shifts or steps from more traditional classrooms.

00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:54.148
So a couple of resources for your listeners One is we have a free four shifts protocol that sort of gives people some redesigned questions and considerations around student agency and cognitive complexity and real world authenticity and tech infusion, and the idea is that we're not asking you to blow up your classroom for an entire month, but you know you can maybe take that thing you're doing next Tuesday and you know, play around with a couple of the bullet points in section C student agency and try some things for 20, 30 minutes and then see how it goes and unpack that and learn from that together with your students and then try it again soon, right?

00:28:54.148 --> 00:29:05.714
And the idea is that we're giving sort of like shorter, smaller scale on ramps and bridges for teachers to move from more traditional practice to things that may stretch their comfort level.

00:29:05.714 --> 00:29:07.056
So the protocol is free.

00:29:07.056 --> 00:29:11.705
You can access it at bitly slash fourshifts so that's bitly slash.

00:29:11.705 --> 00:29:17.230
The number four shifts, and I know Krista will put a link in the show notes.

00:29:17.420 --> 00:29:22.481
I'm a really big fan of a book from Katlin Tucker and Kitty Novak called the Shift to Student-Led.

00:29:22.481 --> 00:29:34.093
That articulates very clearly 10 moves that teachers can make in their classroom that start shifting ownership from teachers to kids, and I'm a very big fan of that book as well.

00:29:34.093 --> 00:29:36.045
So that's also a very accessible book.

00:29:36.045 --> 00:29:49.688
What I particularly like about it is not only does it talk about how to lean into student agency, but it does it through the lens of blended learning strategies, which is Katlin's area of expertise, and universal design for learning, which is Katie's area of expertise.

00:29:49.688 --> 00:29:58.689
So it's this really wonderful blend of sort of deeper learning principles with blended learning structures and UDL frameworks, all on one book.

00:29:58.779 --> 00:30:13.105
So thank you as we work on coming to a close, because I know you are a very busy person and I love keeping tap and finding out all the different places you've been traveling and where you've been going, what you've been learning.

00:30:13.105 --> 00:30:15.268
I'm anxiously awaiting this new book.

00:30:15.740 --> 00:30:17.505
Hey, I'm not traveling for the next month, you are?

00:30:19.108 --> 00:30:21.243
Okay, this is true In my head.

00:30:21.243 --> 00:30:28.106
You're always on the go, which you have been the last two years, collecting all of your research and getting to interact with these amazing schools.

00:30:28.106 --> 00:30:47.575
I've been really leaning into the power of music and how that influences us in our emotions and connections to other people, and so, as we work on wrapping up, I'm curious what have you been listening to lately, or what is front of mind that has just been resonating, and why?

00:30:48.921 --> 00:31:11.987
I'm a diehard 1980s new wave music kid and so you know, I think every year Spotify tells me that I'm in the top 0.0005% of listeners to the Smiths yes, and then you know all the bands like you know Depeche Mode and Erasure and you know D and all that stuff.

00:31:11.987 --> 00:31:13.991
So that tends to be my go-to listening music.

00:31:13.991 --> 00:31:23.104
I also listen to a lot of punk music, particularly Green Day and the Sex Pistols, and you know the Offspring and some folks like that.

00:31:23.104 --> 00:31:31.105
So you know, for a 56 year old short haired white guy, you know, try to put a little edge in my music here and there.

00:31:31.506 --> 00:31:36.688
Yeah, you had me, especially with the offspring and with green day huge fans.

00:31:36.688 --> 00:31:40.325
I remember going to see them in concert offspring, when I was young.

00:31:40.325 --> 00:31:41.990
I'm like who are these people?

00:31:41.990 --> 00:31:44.865
And then I went out and bought all of their CDs.

00:31:45.646 --> 00:31:47.711
Yeah, well, and I'm appreciative.

00:31:47.711 --> 00:32:02.990
You know I run these principal licensure cohorts for teachers and counselors and coaches who want to think they want to be school administrators and they're getting younger every year, krista but you know their music tastes are also in mind, so they're constantly introducing me to new things that I should listen to.

00:32:02.990 --> 00:32:05.368
I had a student a couple of years ago, ben.

00:32:05.368 --> 00:32:11.202
He grew up in Detroit and he was like dude.

00:32:11.202 --> 00:32:12.928
I'm going to send you some playlists of all these underground Detroit punk bands.

00:32:12.928 --> 00:32:14.693
I'm like all right, so you know, spanning my horizons.

00:32:15.820 --> 00:32:20.356
And the funniest thing for me, thinking back on my kids growing up my oldest is 23.

00:32:20.356 --> 00:32:26.330
My middle will be 20 in a couple of weeks was when they found Green Day and they were in love and I'm like.

00:32:26.330 --> 00:32:27.373
They're like mom.

00:32:27.373 --> 00:32:28.034
Have you heard that?

00:32:28.034 --> 00:32:30.285
I'm like.

00:32:30.285 --> 00:32:34.413
I was your age, teenage years when they came out.

00:32:34.413 --> 00:32:36.407
So, yeah, I'm a little familiar with Green Day.

00:32:36.407 --> 00:32:46.586
So, as we work on wrapping up here, I'm curious if people want to reach out and learn more about you and your work.

00:32:46.586 --> 00:32:47.984
I know you're blogging.

00:32:47.984 --> 00:32:53.442
I am going to put this in the show notes so if you're listening or driving right now, you can, when you get home, click on it.

00:32:53.442 --> 00:32:55.487
But if, how could people get ahold of you?

00:32:56.067 --> 00:32:56.730
Yes, thank you.

00:32:56.730 --> 00:33:03.133
I have been a Getting Smart fellow, which means that some of my work is at the Getting Smart website.

00:33:03.133 --> 00:33:11.571
Getting Smart is a international nonprofit that shares about innovative schooling, and so just go to gettingsmartorg.

00:33:11.571 --> 00:33:19.621
I'm also currently a fellow for the Center for Innovative Leadership for NAESP, that's the National Association of Elementary School Principals.

00:33:19.621 --> 00:33:32.645
We are podcasting and sharing resources in the NAESP community, so we have, you know, an innovative leadership community that we're feeding with my co-fellow Liz, who's a principal in Massachusetts.

00:33:32.645 --> 00:33:38.961
We are throwing interviews with people on the podcast channel that NAESP has Like.

00:33:38.961 --> 00:33:45.269
For example, we just recently interviewed Holly Clark about AI in grades K through eight things like that.

00:33:45.269 --> 00:33:57.843
And then my primary hub, which I've been located at since about 2006, is dangerously irrelevant, and that's just dangerously irrelevantorg, which is probably a great way to describe much of my work, or at least how some people view me.

00:33:57.843 --> 00:33:59.588
So, anyway, that's the main way to find me.

00:34:00.131 --> 00:34:05.865
Thank you and I'm like, okay, so it took me all this time to be like, why is it named that?

00:34:05.865 --> 00:34:09.773
And so I was going through and I'm like, oh, so that's a fabulous quote.

00:34:09.773 --> 00:34:19.764
I'm just going to leave it there that, if you want to dig a little bit deeper and find out why your blog is named dangerously irrelevant, fabulous Scott, thank you so much.

00:34:19.764 --> 00:34:22.007
It is always a pleasure to talk with you.

00:34:22.007 --> 00:34:26.289
I walk away with new ideas, new thoughts and feel like a smarter person.

00:34:26.289 --> 00:34:38.442
I appreciate you always in making time and at conferences, connecting with people and being willing to say hey, meet this person or meet that person, and to give of your knowledge, your time and your expertise.

00:34:38.442 --> 00:34:42.731
So, thank you, it's been a pleasure to get to see and to learn from you again.

00:34:43.780 --> 00:34:45.163
It's always fun to hang out with you, Krista.

00:34:45.163 --> 00:34:48.869
I appreciate the invite and, for your listeners, you can back this up.

00:34:48.869 --> 00:34:51.074
But I try to be really, really responsive.

00:34:51.074 --> 00:34:57.465
So if you're interested in any kind of follow-up conversations, just drop me an email and we'll set up a Zoom chat or a phone call and go from there.

00:34:58.086 --> 00:34:59.269
That would be fantastic.

00:34:59.269 --> 00:35:03.485
I will drop your calendar way to get ahold of you if that works for you.

00:35:03.485 --> 00:35:08.210
I know that they can find it through their website, but I'll give them a direct link so that they can work with you.

00:35:08.210 --> 00:35:09.914
So thank you again.

00:35:09.914 --> 00:35:10.855
It's been a pleasure.

00:35:10.855 --> 00:35:15.969
I look forward to continuing to follow your path, read your books, and we will catch up soon.

00:35:17.231 --> 00:35:17.994
Same, krista same.

00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:24.025
Thank you again for tuning in to this episode of SEL.

00:35:24.025 --> 00:35:36.251
In EDU, at Residence Education, we equip educators with knowledge, skills and resources to design learning experiences that foster students' academic, social and emotional growth.

00:35:36.251 --> 00:35:43.193
We believe that every small action to foster connections and growth creates ripples shaping the future.

070: Redefining Education through Deeper Learning with Dr. Scott McLeod

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