96. Unlocking the Power of Productive Struggle: How to Transform Student Apathy into Active Learning with Special Guest Mona Iehl

[0:00] If you've ever faced the challenge of staring at blank faces of your uninterested and disengaged students, you know how hard it is to spark that curiosity and the toll it can take on your feelings about teaching in general.

[0:12] Actually getting your students to take action is a struggle in and of itself, but what if I told you that there's a transformative approach that could flip the script from apathy to engagement?

That's exactly what we're diving into in today's episode where we can explore the game-changing strategy of teaching productive struggle. Now, this isn't just about getting students to pay attention.

It's about reigniting your passion for teaching and empowering your students to embrace the challenges of learning head on.

But how, you ask? How do we transform struggle into a force for engagement?

How do we make our classrooms a place where mistakes are not just tolerated, but celebrated as stepping stones to learning? That's exactly what my special guest and friend, Mona Ewell from MonaMath, and I discussed today.

Mona is a former math avoider. She's a teacher and instructional coach in Chicago, and her passion for math came when she discovered how to engage every student in a subject that she, too, disliked.

Through intentionally changing her math class to help students be mathematicians using a student-centered approach, math came alive for Mona and for her students.

That's why today we are discussing exactly what productive struggle is, how it helps to bridge the gap between apathy and action, and the practical steps that we can start to take to weave productive struggle into the fabric of our teaching, regardless of what subject we teach.

And so if you're a teacher who is struggling with apathetic students and you need a new approach, this episode is for you. Let's get into it.

I am so excited to have Mona back on the show. Welcome back, Mona.

Hello. I'm so excited to be here. Yes. So we've been doing this semi-series about students who are apathetic, all of those kind of negative reactions that we're getting from students that kind of lead teachers into burnout.

And I thought, you know who would know a lot about a lot of stuff?

Mona. Mona should come onto the show and we should chat about it because I think your stance on a lot of things is very similar to mine, but the way that you express it is really powerful.

So what are your thoughts on apathetic students in the classroom?

Well, first of all, thanks, Brittany. You're the best. What a hype lady, right?

That's why we all listen to you because you just know how to hype us up um okay apathetic students my thought is my very first thought is like reflection like if i'm calling a kid something i always take a beat and reflect on myself and i know that sounds harsh let's just start it up right there right yeah but often that comes from our frustration and we often often label a kid right away without, and then that blocks us from getting down to the why.

[1:24] And so spending some time on thinking, what has led this kid to this point?

What behaviors are they showing? Just taking a minute of like, why am I saying that?

Because we're all parents. I know you're a parent.

I'm a parent. And I'm just like, if my kid was seen as that at school, school, I would want to know, I would want you, I would want to have a conversation because there's more to my kid than him misbehaving in ukulele class because he's five and that's what real life is.

He is like, you know, but there's a reason why.

And so I just wanted to put a little plug in there first of like, yes, our students are frustrating, but there's, we got to dig deeper, Right.

So that's first.

Second is you're not alone. I feel like it's everywhere. It's everybody. It's everywhere.

There are kids that just don't want to struggle.

Right. But then I'm like, nobody wants to struggle. Right. Exactly. And things are hard.

I want the quickest and fastest this way to avoid that.

And the only reason we as adults keep doing the workout or keep eating right or keep whatever doing the hard thing is because we can see beyond the current moment and our kids can't do that yet. Right. Right. Right.

[2:52] And so it's about teaching them those life skills to see that, like, the hard work and the struggle is the learning.

And that's just something that, like, doesn't happen overnight.

And it's easier for some kids than other kids. Right.

[3:09] Given, I mean, given their environments that they've grown up in, that sort of thing makes a huge difference on if they're able to see learning as part, like, the struggle is in the learning, you know? And that's how we learn.

We learn, not always, through extreme struggle.

But oftentimes, we see the biggest jumps or leaps in growth, personally, academically, when things are a little bit hard and when we're not getting that immediate result.

And I think nowadays it is so easy for students to just grab their phone and pick it up and get an answer right quick and in a hurry.

I know I do that. And I look for those opportunities to get that because I want to experience more of the things that bring me joy. But at this point in time, our students don't have those skills.

And I love that you called it a life skill because it is. It is the life skill.

We see oftentimes it's not just students who are apathetic when we label them apathetic. You know, it's adults, too.

There are adults in this world who never learned those skills as well.

And so I think it is partly our job to teach them those skills, even if that's not our content area. you.

So how might we like go into it like that? What would you do in a situation where you want to give them those skills?

[4:36] Yeah. Well, and I think the thing is, is like the reality is that kids can get the answer on their phone. So- If that is like, that's what they want. And so I guess like my first thought is like, we have to give them more questions, more things to do where they can't get the answer on their phone. Right.

[4:58] And through those kinds of questions and scenarios and problems to solve, then they can start to work on building these skills.

Now the question then becomes, and teachers are like, yeah, sounds good, Mona, but they won't even take their hoodie off and their earbuds out.

I get it, right? I really do.

I really do get it. I spent 15 years in the classroom in Chicago, and most of those years, 13 of those 15, were spent in historically underserved populations in middle school where kids are at a third grade reading level, and it was hard for them to engage with a social studies text at a sixth grade level. Like, I get it.

But my work, your work, our work as teachers, the reason why we started this is to help kids.

And the best way to help kids is to give them the skills that are going to help them tackle problems.

So it's not about the problem or what the content is.

It's about how to, the toolbox that they have to tackle those those problems.

And so one of the things that I teach a lot about is productive struggle.

[6:12] This idea that we will face struggle, but we have to like engineer opportunities for students to practice struggling and feel success.

That's the productive part. Because as soon as struggle becomes unproductive, that's where apathy sets in, right?

That's where I'm unmotivated. That's That's where I'm disengaged.

But before we get there, before we get to unproductive struggle, we have to like, we have to think about how we can create productive struggle.

[6:46] And so, want me to keep going? Yeah, no, I mean, so what's the difference between unproductive and productive? Like, give me some examples of that. Yeah.

So productive struggle would be like, kids are engaged.

They are like willing to keep going in it, right?

Like, Like they're feeling small bits of success along this solution pathway.

Yeah. If I'm thinking about, I mean, I'm talking about math, right? That's my life.

[7:16] But even in like reading or if they're tackling a text, there's enough there where they can get through the text and make sense of it.

Right. But it's not like an easy read, right? Right.

We're not at frustration level, but we're right there in that zone of proximal development, as you will. Yeah. Right. Right.

[7:38] So they can stay in the process without completely shutting down.

You know, I taught special education for 13 years and now I do instructional coaching.

So when I saw my students, that was one of the things that I really wanted them to recognize because everything was a struggle for them.

Every single part was a struggle.

And because I got so into learning about brain science and stuff like that, I recognized that they were going through periods of time where they were never getting dopamine to support their effort.

So they were getting more effort and less reward for it. And so I had to figure out ways that they could get those little pieces.

So chunking assignments was one that really worked for my students specifically, and just giving them those little wins as they go along.

But I would love for you to kind of share what this would look like in a math classroom.

What would this look like? You know, how can we start to make more productive struggle for our students to see those little wins?

[8:47] Yes. Yes. So it has to start, like, I think class has to start with a win, right?

So a lot of times in math classes, class starts with like review questions, like an entrance ticket or a do now that's like two or three review questions.

But that is like a great way to shut kids down.

Because if I've been absent for a week, or I've been confused for the last two lessons, and then now you're giving me quote a review question that I just I don't have access to right like right then I'm automatically shut down but if you start out with like an open-ended task ones I love are like which one doesn't belong or images there's really no right answer right it's just which one of these things doesn't belong and it can be fraction models it can be linear of your equations graphed, right?

It could be anything that is related to your content or is reviewing.

But just getting kids thinking right away, the minute they come in the classroom, that's just one.

It could be where you put up 47 on the board and you're like, this is the answer. Write the question.

[10:00] They could, right? There's 40 chickens and there's seven cows.

How many animals are on the farm? Like it can be simple or it can be as high as they want to take it. Right.

But here's the thing. Starting class with something like that, that's open-ended where everyone can participate and everyone can find success. Yeah.

Because when we have that opportunity to find success, then we are more willing when we struggle happens, right? To engage.

And so it's about shifting your community.

And I haven't even said that yet, but I feel like that's what this is.

You can't just walk into your classroom tomorrow and be like, okay, guys, here's the deal.

We're going to productively struggle and I'm not going to help you and you're going to do it and it's going to be great. No, that's not going to work.

No, that's not going to work.

We're going to have more kids jumping out the window at that point, right? Right. I'm sick.

[10:56] I think the first thing is finding success.

And then maybe at the same time is establishing with kids what this all means, right?

So if you're in a, if you're in primary or elementary, like using a picture book to talk about struggle as a way we we learn?

Like there's a picture book called Jabari jumps where he is climbing up the like high dive into a pool and he's so scared and he doesn't want to do it.

And he, he climbs up, climbs back down, climbs back up, talks to his dad about getting all hyped up, just still can't do it. Right.

[11:36] That is a perfect example of like, you know, he finally does it, but like it took him the a whole dang book to do it.

And so that's the perfect example of like an entry point in with kids of like, you do hard things all the time in your life.

Right. Right. Like this isn't different.

This is just school hard. And that for some reason feels harder to you, but let's talk about it.

Cause do you know how to ride a bike? Do you know how to tie your shoes?

Do you know how to help your mom make dinner when she's working late?

Like, you know how to do all these insanely difficult things.

Right. So this is just math and this is just reading, right? Like they're hard.

We know that, but you can do hard things.

And so that mindset shift. So whether it's using a text or in middle school using a video or even like a shorter text, you know, but just relating it to students so that they can see that they do possess the skills to struggle.

[12:40] Right. You know, you said something there, and I think you had the exact same stages in your mind that I did, which is like, first, you have to have an environment that allows for productive struggle, where there's not always these right or wrong responses that allow students to experience and grow in their thought process, where it's not, you got this answer wrong. wrong. There's room for growth there.

Oh, I really like this part, but what about going a little bit further?

[13:16] They have to have that mindset component as well. So teaching them that mindset component.

But I thought about this AI tool that I found and it's called Class Companion and it's a writing tool.

And so what you can do with this writing tool is you can set it to have multiple attempts. And so students are given that low stakes practice that allows them to grow.

And I think when they see things that are always high stakes, that makes them break down, makes them not want to do things all the time.

Whereas if you have a low stakes way of getting that additional support, it gives more opportunity for them to feel like, okay, I am making little wins and I'm progressing over time.

And they're able to actually see that, you know?

Yeah. And that's why, like in the math world, Building Thinking Classrooms by Peter Lilleyadult is such a hit right now.

One of his practices is to use whiteboards, like kids are standing working on whiteboards because it's not permanent.

[14:26] They can very quickly get rid of their thinking if they think it's wrong or they're headed down the wrong path.

They can just quick erase and go back. And what he found was that kids are more likely to participate if it doesn't feel permanent. Yeah. Yeah.

And so, yeah, you're talking about like low stakes. Like you're, I, I love talking to kids about rough draft thinking and like in, or in progress thinking.

Right. But rough draft thinking of like, this isn't final. Nobody's giving this to the principal.

Nobody's putting this on a bulletin board. No, like no one else is going to see this.

This is just what you're doing. You're just in the minute.

You're like in the progress, in progress thinking, meaning you're just in it. Right.

It's a rough draft. It doesn't matter right now. Just get we're getting through it.

Right. And so that is leading me to think like your values, your expectations, your norms that you set for your community matter. And so.

I always say thinking matters more than answers in math.

And maybe it's, you know, I want to see rough draft thinking or whatever, whatever your norm is.

But here's the thing. We can have norms. We can have things that we value, but our actions have to support them.

So I can say thinking matters more than answers, but you turn in your work and I mark it all wrong.

[15:53] Well, then answers matter more. Right. But if I say you turn it in and what you were saying when just a minute ago is then I give you some feedback on how to show your thinking better or a circle, the part of your thinking that maybe is where you went wrong.

Or I say to you while you're working, right? Like tell me more about this.

Describe to me your thinking and all of my language and all of my feedback is around your thinking.

I've shifted the narrative in our classroom to say, this is what matters.

And you know what? I can think. I am a kid and I can think.

I might not be able to get the right answer, but because I know I can think and I've had a few weeks now that I trust that you're not going to embarrass me, right? Like if I have a wrong answer.

And so because Because your actions have met what you say, which is my thinking matters and I can think. So I'm going to participate.

[16:55] So when we're talking about this, I know that there's one teacher out there who's like, okay, I love this.

I love the idea of bringing productive struggle to my students, but I still have to give grades.

Like I have to give them grades. And if I'm teaching math class, accuracy matters.

Matters how how does how do we kind of help that teacher kind of maybe shift or do something a little bit differently so that they're able to keep that that value system in their classroom without you know i get what you're saying a hundred percent and you know grades is a whole nother thing right like grades are just one form of feedback for our students right.

[17:38] For better or worse. Right. But the thing is, is like, we have, we are on a mission to teaching kids how to learn.

Right. And so, yes, they are going to get low grades if they don't yet understand things.

[17:54] But if they're participating and they are present, hopefully we can give them some feedback, whether in the form of grades or not, that is showing them that that is important important too, right?

And so I coach a high school teacher and he has this stamp system where it's basically like you get three stamps and that means you mastered it.

Four is succeed, you know, like he put the stamp on there.

But he also will give kids a stamp if he sees that they are trying or that they are participating.

[18:27] So thinking about some way that you can signal to to students that like, like giving them feedback on that, that piece specifically.

But I'll say this, productive struggle isn't just one thing we add, right?

It's like, you can't be like, so Fridays are the day we productively struggle.

And that won't work because this is a practice practice of like how to learn and so it is a shift from a teacher-directed classroom to a student-centered classroom right and so what i mean by that is teacher-centered is the very traditional way that you and i likely grew up in those kind of classrooms right it's the front the teacher stands at the front teacher tells us how to solve the math problem we mimic it and then Then we do the practice problems, they mark them, and then we move on to the next strategy the next day. Yeah.

[19:27] But a student-centered classroom says, I'm going to start right here from your expertise, child, wherever you are.

[19:35] And I'm going to provide space in my lessons for every child to show up to that math problem with what they know how to do.

And then I, as the facilitator, am going to, as you're productively struggling, I'm going to give you a question or a nudge to get you to the next step.

Maybe, maybe you need two days, maybe you need a week, right?

But in my classroom, I've set that up to be student-centered to give you that space.

Ooh, that sounds hard though, right? Because it is hard. But it's about making a shift from saying, instead of I teach it, we do it together, they do it on their own, gradual release.

Instead saying, hold up, I'm going to launch the problem. I'm going to give them a context.

I'm going to make sure everybody understands the problem. Then I'm going to let them solve it. I'm going to see what they can do.

And while they're solving it, I'm in the role of going around and seeing where are our holes, who gets it, who doesn't get it.

And providing that opportunity for them to productively struggle, to practice those life skills we were talking about, but also, and here's the teacher move, but also to figure out what they know.

[20:58] Because let me ask you this, if you pre-teach kids a strategy or something, here's the problem, kids, here's how you solve it, and then you send them off to do it, are you finding what they know or are you finding out what they can reproduce from the board? Yeah.

I mean, I want to know what they know. And because I believe kids are naturally curious and I believe children can solve problems, they are problem solvers, I want to know what they know.

I want to know what they're showing up with to this problem.

[21:32] We often think that, like, skills are a ladder, that it's have to learn this and this and this and this, but often, and then we'll hold them back, right? We'll be like, no, no, no, no, don't do that. We haven't learned that yet.

But I know that and I get it and I can do it. So why can't I do it?

Right? And so allowing some space for students to productively struggle allows you as the teacher to find out what it is they do know or don't know so that you can support them on their learning journey.

[22:04] And they can find success.

Yeah. You know, one of the things that I did in my classroom to really foster some of that growth mindset about how to productively struggle was I gave my students, I wanted them to recognize that even if they didn't know something at the very beginning of the lesson, that they could become self-aware of it because one of the pieces that I think students kind of miss out on is I don't like this subject or it's hard and so one of the things that I did was I told them on a scale of one to three tell me how much you know about this one okay and then at the end of the lesson during the exit ticket time make a make a number there that gave me a lot of information about what they knew or how they felt about it, but it also let them see, hey, I went from a one to a two.

And if they didn't go from a one to a two, or if they didn't go from a one to a three, that gave me the knowledge that, hmm, maybe I need to help this student a little bit more, facilitate that learning a little bit further so that they can start to feel those, you know, positive pieces.

So that was just one thing that I kind of did to kind of foster that, but also give them that.

[23:24] Self-awareness to start the growth mindset process.

And I think that made a huge difference, honestly. That self-assessment is another whole key life skill of saying, I don't know this. I'm going to try, but I don't know this.

I talked to my friend who is a coach for... She's like a student success coach for a community college.

And she was like, I'm supposed to be coaching them on like academics, helping them with their work, you know, essays, da, da, da.

She's like, but all I do is help kids productively struggle. Right.

[23:59] Like all I do is help kids identify what you don't know and what you do know and working through that.

And so I was just saying to her, like, what if everybody was doing that in elementary and middle school?

Even by the time they got to high school, how much better off they would be, right?

Yeah. And I think it is really, as a teacher, redefining your role in the classroom and thinking about what does help look like and talking with your students about that because they want your help.

Their hands are up in the air before they have even reread the problem.

They haven't read the directions. We know that's for sure. And they're like, I need help.

Right? You're like, you do? And so one simple reframe is just to say, in this class, we help ourselves first.

Right. And so you walk up and like you just say, tell me what you've tried.

And they're like, nothing.

And you're like, got it. Do you want me to reread the problem for you?

[25:03] So I always just offer to reread it because often they haven't.

And then that signals to them of like, oh, I should have done that.

I had something I should have done. Yeah.

Oh, that thing I'm supposed to do.

So then I'll reread the problem. And then I'll just kind of wait.

And I take this neutral stance with my kids during productive struggle, which sometimes makes them cry. I'll be honest with you.

Because they're so accustomed to teachers saving, right?

Because we love them and we don't want to see them struggle.

And it is agonizing to not tell someone what to do. Because we're good at it.

[25:46] But instead, and I warn them, I'm like, it's going to be weird.

You're going to be like, is this right? And I'm going to go, I don't know. What do you think?

You know, I'm going to look at your work and just say, interesting, and walk away. way.

Like, and you're going to be like, but miss you'll help me. Right.

I'm not going to, because I believe you can do it.

And if a kid just hears those words over and over and over again, and your beat, and again, back to your behaviors, right.

Cause we can say it, but if our, but if I'm like, I believe in you, you can do it. But by the way, give me your pencil real quick.

Let me show you how to do it.

Right. Like, but we have to, and I'm not, and I don't believe that productive struggle is your whole class period.

I think it should be a pretty short amount of time and we can build stamina and, Right. But it has, like you were talking about chunking earlier.

Absolutely. We productively struggle with one problem. And then I always tell kids, I'm going to save you at the end. I'm going to save you.

We're going to do this one problem. We're going to come together.

We're going to discuss it. We're going to look at strategies.

[26:50] I'm going to choose a couple kids. They're going to, we're going to share their strategies.

The savior is right there, like three minutes away, you know, like you can do this for three minutes.

And so, but, but back to those behaviors as a the teacher, I'm staying neutral to communicate to my students that I believe that they are able to help themselves.

Yeah. And you might be the only person in their life that's showing them that, right?

Because I have a toddler and I know it's way easier to just put their shoes on them and put their coat on them.

And we're not doing any productive struggle at 8am. Yeah.

[27:25] That's too early for productive struggle. That's right.

That's right. So I need my kid's teacher to let let them struggle.

And I'm just like, I'm playing, but you know what I mean? Like, yeah, you might be the only person that is communicating to that student, you know, as somebody else believes that they can do this hard math.

And that's so important.

Yeah, I can't, I can't agree with it more. And I really think, you know, just changing our mindset from the student is apathetic to recognizing what the core problem is, and then providing Providing an environment for them to love learning and to learn through the struggle, have that productive struggle, I think is so, so very important.

Is there anything else that you would say to a teacher who's maybe thinking about adding productive struggle?

They probably already have productive struggle. They are just not accessing it.

But do you have any other like tidbits of information or advice to any teachers who are dealing with those apathetic students and moving towards productive struggle?

[28:27] Yeah, I think it's two things. Do it every day.

Do it every single day. This isn't just, like I said earlier, it's just like a once in a while thing.

Because when we're building new skills and we're practicing things that are hard, we have to make it a habit, right?

So make it a habit, schedule it in, do it every day.

Number two is make an anchor chart or some sort of visual that's like something you can point to that has some reminders, right?

Like things I used to write on mine were like, the struggle is real, right? Or like, you will have big feelings.

Like just normalizing what it feels like to struggle and then reminding kids of things that they can do when they're in there.

Like go back and revise your thinking, you know, take some deep breaths.

Like building out that toolbox for students is so important.

And we know that creating cute charts is fun and Instagram worthy, but that's not what matters.

Build it with your students. Ask them.

Add their ideas to this chart. And make it like a living visual where as we discover a new strategy, we add it to it.

Yeah. And then when you approach a student who is like beyond productive struggle and they're frustrated, that's something that you can like help them access.

Look back at our chart. What can you, what from there can you use right now?

[29:48] Yeah, I love that. I think the only other thing that I would add to that is sharing and modeling that we as adults also experience that struggle daily.

Daily like that's something that we we will we started out in school and we are still at you know 30 36 40 50 90 years old we are all still experiencing that and that is something that we will continue to experience and these are the things that work for me what will work for you might be a little bit different and just sharing that with them and modeling that hey this is a struggle for me today is a struggle for me y'all's you know talking is a struggle for me Yeah.

[30:33] That's the only thing that I would add to that. Absolutely. I love tasking kids with that, right?

Of like, now that you know about this, like be on the lookout for it.

Like watch when your parents are productively struggling.

Or I love sharing like with my students about mathematicians from like the past and the present because they don't have a visual for what a mathematician is.

So sharing stories of mathematicians. And I'll tell you, any story about a mathematician is about a struggle.

And so just talking with them about, you know, not like most famous people didn't get to be where they are easily, right?

Like there's a great book about Michael Jordan, like it's called Salt in His Shoes. There's like a picture book that's all about his struggle, right?

Or Lonnie Johnson Johnson is a mathematician and he invented the super soaker water gun.

So like these, and it's all about struggle. And so.

[31:30] Like showing them that that exists in real life in mathematicians and people that are doing math, but also life skill.

Yes. Oh, I love that. And I'm going to put the links for those books in the show notes, because I know that there's at least one math teacher out there listening to this right now and saying, hey, this is a, these are some great books. What were they again?

I will definitely do that. I will definitely do that. I just want to thank you so much, Mona, for coming onto the the show and just chatting about this with me because I think you're my, like we've, we've meshed together.

Our thought processes are very similar and I just love the way that you kind of communicate all of that.

[32:09] I also would love for you to share, I know you've been on the podcast before and you've shared before, but I would love for you to share again where the listeners can find you, where they can learn more from you.

What are some of the things that you offer?

Because because if anybody is a math teacher out there, I'm sure that they will love what you've got.

Yes. Okay. So I have a brand new like guide for people, for teachers who might not love teaching math.

So it's six ways to love teaching math, even if you don't like it right now. Right.

So that's fun. So you can go to monamath.com slash love.

And that is my attempt at saying, Hey, hey, that was me, girl. That was me, friend.

I never liked teaching math.

And then I learned about productive struggle and just math discussion and all these ways that we can teach kids to be better humans, not just mathematicians.

And so put all that into a little guide for you. So grab that there. You can listen to me.

You can listen to me talk more if you want every Monday on Honest Math Chat.

[33:12] So yeah, so that's where we're talking about math things things and being lifelong learners over there.

So I would love to have you listen in and I'm Mona Math like everywhere else.

Yes. So we'll put the links for all of that down in the show notes that way listeners can go and check you out because I'm sure that they will fall in love with you just like I have.

But thank you again, Mona, for being a part of this. It was a pleasure to hang out with you today.

Yes, I love it. Thanks, Brittany. Of course.