Cultivating a New Era of Inclusive Education with Bmore Transformed

Transcript

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Teaching While Queer is a podcast for 2SLGBTQIA+ educational professionals to share their experiences in academia.

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Hi, I'm your host, Bryan Stanton, a theater pedagogue and educator in New York City, and my goal is to share stories from around the world from 2SLGBTQIA+ educators.

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I hope you enjoy Teaching While Queer.

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Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Teaching While Queer.

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I am your host, Bryan Stanton, my pronouns are he/ they, and I'm excited to have a double interview today.

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I have Victoria Lebrón and Gab Sussman with me.

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Hi, how are you two doing?

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Hello Great so excited to be here.

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I'm so excited to have you here.

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Do you mind taking a second and introducing yourself to our listeners?

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Of course, sure, I'm Victoria Lebron.

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I use she/ her pronouns.

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And I'm Gab Sussman.

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I use they/she

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Awesome, and how do you identify within the community as all of our wonderful acronym?

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Yeah, I identify as non-binary.

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I also identify as queer and we'll get into later like why queer?

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But yeah, that's me.

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I identify as bisexual, but I'm also like becoming more comfortable with like just branching out into queer.

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I think that is like starting to feel a little better for me.

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So yeah, queer.

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I think that feel is like starting to feel a little better for me.

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So yeah, I'm really enjoying the like reclamation of queer, because I also identify as queer and I'm like it just feels better.

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It just feels better to say for me personally and I've taken a lot of queer studies classes and so I think that's kind of helped from like the academic in me.

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It's like oh, I have like an academic understanding of this word now and so it makes more sense in my brain.

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Oh yeah, absolutely yeah.

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Yeah, so tell me a little bit about your roles in education.

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What do you do as far as education goes?

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Yeah, so we are both former classroom teachers, both like formally trained, went to school, were to like become classroom teachers and ipso facto are no longer in the classroom.

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We decided to start our own business.

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It's an educational collective here in Baltimore City which is called Be More Transform that is short for Baltimore Transformative Learning Collective but we are still very much engaged and involved and passionate about teaching, learning, educating and educators and youth.

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So we, like this morning, had a graphic novel club with 11, like seven through nine year olds at a local bookstore, which was super fun.

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Like we still, it was great.

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Yeah, we still we work with schools we work with youth, we work with families, we consult.

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We do a lot of things that we honestly didn't really have the capacity, both like energy wise and resource wise, to do while we were teaching full-time right, because it was like 65 hours a week, um they're being like the stress of like.

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Oh yeah, that that like was extra exhausting yeah, oh, absolutely teachers being like no, you can't.

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Yeah, absolutely no, this is we're recording on a saturday and they got seven to nine year olds to get up in the morning on a saturday and go read graphic novels.

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So right there, like that's just a huge achievement, congratulations thank you.

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Those kids, like I mean graphic novels are super fun we're, we love them ourselves, but like it was just like a big nerding experience, um, and it brought us it brings us a lot of joy to be able to do things like that.

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I love that.

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All right, do you mind taking a trip back in time with me and talking a little bit about what your experience was like as a queer student?

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I love this question so much.

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I I'm someone who, like knew I was queer as a younger person, but like I didn't feel like I was in a place where I could really be out, um, and like my, my parents kind of knew, but they didn't take it seriously.

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It was very much like a phase thing.

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And so when I went to school, which was a religious school, um, I felt scared because I just didn't know um how it would be received.

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Um, and yeah, I went.

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It's funny because I went to an all girl Catholic school and there were so many people in my class who were like bye or like you know, but then when they left, they had, they had like a boyfriend, you know, and so it was like hard to know like who was really.

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And um, yeah, I just felt really scared.

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So I did, I wasn't out in school and um, I, I look back and I think about how I spent so much time like in my head just like confused, not understanding, not really having any role models, um, not knowing which teachers were safe, um, and I had some friends who knew, but like also were like I don't know what to do you know and, um, yeah, it was just kind of a scary time, you know, but no, like physical threats, just sort of like it was.

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A lot of it was in my head and yeah, yeah, so it's interesting and it makes me feel so good now that I'm like I'm just out, you know, and like great and it.

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I in some ways wish that, like if I could go back, I would just maybe do it differently.

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I don't know yeah it is wild what the like fear of the unknown will do.

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Because you grew up in a religious school no physical threats, right, you knew some people who said that they were also bisexual, or which means they're a part of the queer community.

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But at the same time your brain is like creating this real sense, like this real sense of fear, and I think the brain is so wild, like in another life.

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I'm sure I'm going to study the brain, or I've studied the brain, because I think it is so wild just the fact that, like you, can think something and it can become so real and visceral for you yes, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and honestly that I resonate with that.

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So hard um, I was, yeah, like again, I was a.

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I was a really like terrified kid.

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Um, I grew up in a really small town in the Hudson Valley of New York, so like the suburbs of New York City.

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It was like mountainous and so like people kind of like you know, like they were, I don't know it, just like it didn't feel welcoming for me.

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I was also one of the few like kids of color in my school and then like even fewer, mixed kids, mixed race kids.

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So I just like that, coupled with the fact, yeah, so I just like I never felt like I fit in and I desperately wanted to, and so it like it looked a lot like me mirroring what other people were doing.

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I also then, on top of that, grew up in a household that didn't encourage like risk-taking or even just like exploration.

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Like my parents had like a very clear idea of like what our roles were as daughters, speaking of like my older sister and I, and we just like did what we expected, um, and we were expected to do what was expected of us.

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So, like, all of those things just led me to um, just to just being like a follower in a sense.

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Right, and so I.

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It wasn't until my early adulthood that I had an opportunity to just really learn more about who is Gab like?

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Who am I as a person Like?

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What do I care about?

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What do I like?

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That is not in response to what the people around me like, um, or like who they are Right, so, um, I think, like, so, as a queer child, I yeah, I was just like a shell, right, I just like receded in, I didn't want to like, I didn't have any mirrors or any examples of what it looked like to be to try on new things, or even like within what it means to be non-binary or as someone who was assigned, assigned female at birth.

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There was a very clear uh expression, right, that you were expected to match in order to again be accepted, and this was like in the late 90s, early 2000s, um, yeah, so that was, that was a time and, unlike victoria, I would never go back.

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Um.

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Time travel was like offered if somebody, somebody would have to pay me a lot of money, yeah, to go back in time as myself or as any or like like nope, history can stay there.

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I hear that I think I think of it as like a reparenting thing you know, oh, yeah, yeah yeah, little Victoria.

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Also I forgot to mention I'm from Queens, new York, so I, like, went to a Catholic high school in Queens.

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We're both New Yorkers, anyway.

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But yeah, like like a way to be like you are fine.

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You're like you can claim this thing, you know, because I, at the end of the day, like my parents were supportive, you know, but like at the Bronx, so in New York City, and you had an experience that's similar to me and my experience and we're both in these places that are like archetypal progressive right, but still in the late 90s, earlys, there was this real, uh, strict, binary, uh and expectation, like when I quit baseball to do music was like a huge deal because you know that was a more of a sissy thing to do, um, and then, wow, what happened when I became a musical theater actor in high school.

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So I think it's so interesting because a lot of people when I talk to them who are from the Midwest and whatnot, and I share that you know we had the same experiences, even though we were in vastly different places and even though there's this perception of progress, um, and so I think it's pretty interesting just having that shared experience from across the coast um, yeah, that is yeah, and especially because when people think of like oh you know, new york and california the most liberal places in the country is it's that's like the go to right.

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Those are the two spots, and especially because I grew up in a suburb of Los Angeles, like LA and New York City, those are the places to be if you're going to be different.

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But a lot of the stories that I've heard over the last two years doing these interviews really mirror what I experienced in LA and what you're saying you experienced here in Queens and in the Hudson Valley.

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So it's it's really interesting to me, just kind of the perceptions that we have about space and time and what it means to be in a specific like the, the idiom that you know, the grass is always greener and it's quite in fact the same grass.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yes and yeah.

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So we touched a little bit on this earlier, but can you talk a little bit more about your experience as classroom educators?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So we were teachers for a long time, like I taught for 10 years and, um, essentially, yeah, like you have your master's in inclusive education, I got my master's in educational leadership and both did, like you know, took on DEI roles and teacher leader roles and ultimately, like it's, it was never the students, the students were never the problem, they're always delightful.

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It was.

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It's always the politics and the, the adults who like center themselves, who are ultimately like incompetent, um, in their roles, right, um, and don't fully see education, uh, or don't have, don't share this, like, didn't share the same values that we have, right.

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So we, as classroom teachers, like it was we had the opportunity to work on the same team and it was really, really fun and it was, I mean, that's how we met.

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We met because we were on the same teaching team, teaching team and, um, it was just it got to a point where it was untenable, where, um, people were so resistant, where they were like targeting us um.

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It was like it was hostile and angry.

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It was yeah it was really hostile and like to the point where, like, like Victoria and I and many other people had been given roles to steward DEI initiatives at our school were like I was like, literally, when I was hired at that school, like it was part of the understanding that I had all this training and I would be stepping into like partner with the DEI office to do this, and yet I was then, uh, like they're not like villainized essentially for like speaking out and doing the things that literally hired you to do.

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Oh yeah, like they.

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I remember the email that went out when you were hired and I was just like, oh my god, yeah, like I want to be friends with this person.

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And then you started and I was like yes, like, and then other people were like wait, I feel weird and it's like okay, so like I don't know what to tell you.

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Like it's, it's not about you, yeah.

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Right, like, yeah, yeah, so that like, ultimately it became not about us as classroom teachers, but it was just like our values with this education system, just like we cannot continue to be complicit in something that is so harmful and so violent towards people who are like us, Right, so that was.

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That just led to a point.

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And, yeah, that led to a point where we were just like, well, let's do something together.

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Yeah, and that's where Be More Transformed came from.

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But we have so much respect for educators, administrators, like, again, like, do a lot of work to support youth and educators and to really hold space for all stakeholders.

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Hold space for all stakeholders Because I mean education, every like.

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Education is a human right and the way in which most of our country is is treated within the system is absolutely horrible.

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And so, like, as abolitionist educators, we want to both help, triage and respond and support like the folks who are in it now world where education is different, is is just completely like, is decolonized, is d is.

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Is just has been reconstructed to look completely different from what it is now and you don't know what it looks like but like it's not this well, and I think it is already changing, like I see all these articles about.

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like kids are kids who are feeling safer at home during COVID or not?

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And it's like this is something we will need to address, because we can't just pretend that there were kids specifically, like there were lots of black and brown kids who felt safer right, lots of queer kids who felt safer out of the classroom.

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That's saying a lot.

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And like you can't just forget about those people.

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I understand that there are people in this country who want to just forget that those people exist, but we're not going anywhere.

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And I I think it scares some people, like when we talk about like the education system is going to change because it will have to, it's going to have to evolve in order to stay relevant.

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You know, and I think some people are like, yeah, but it's just going to like there, it's just going to be replaced by like voucher, whatever.

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But I am excited for the change because I'm hoping it's like you said, that it's like decolonized, it's like more abolitionist, it's more inclusive.

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You know, and like, unfortunately, we we do hear about people who don't like to hear about inclusion, and it's like it's just so.

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You know, it reminds me of how I felt when I left the classroom, which was I was just disgusted by the amount of adults who centered themselves, who, who were.

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It was really about their discomfort level.

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Yeah, yeah, you know who would come into my classroom and tell me, like you know, your class is doing this and I just don't think it's a good idea, because people are going to think that you're trying to indoctrinate them.

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But it's like, buddy, these kids brought it up to me and then I have empowered them to be leaders, right, so like, yeah, but it's like they can't.

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These are people who don't see children as like fully realized human beings.

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Yeah, our country hates kids.

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they always oh, hates, teachers, you know like, it's just so clear and we're not about that life and and again.

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Like we understanding, like had a lot of like privilege in that moment to yes, to like literally fully step out of the system and create something from scratch it's been hella hard and, at the same time, that's why, like as a collective, um, we are excited about half, like our work towards building, towards being a co-op yeah, so that other educators can have a pathway to, to still stay connected to kids and families and education, but outside of the oppressive system that exists today.

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And potentially play a role in shaping something new.

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I would really like for us to down the road, you know like think about that.

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Think about like getting people on board who know what it is to like reshape policy or so I don't know.

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It's a long way, a long way, what we do, yeah, we like we are, yeah, we're in like community with people yes, oh yeah, education, yes, yes, but like it is also just the two, it's just the two of us?

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Yeah, that's not really a possibility unless we're never yeah, when we say active, like I wish we had like a yeah, an army or not.

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An army like a, like a, a horde?

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Yeah, we will.

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A murder of people behind a murder of people.

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I love it um, but it's just us for now yeah for now.

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oh, there's so many things that popped up when you guys were talking, and the first one that really comes to mind for me personally, is I truly believe that, from the outside perspective, there are no humans in schools, because we are treated so like educators aren't human and children aren't human and administrators aren't human.

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Like some of the things that I've read in emails, some of the things that have been said to me and other people, I know who it's, just because we are working, doing our job in a classroom.

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They're quite disgusting.

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I had an administrator tell me that she had never been called cunt before, ever in her life and she came to this school and received several emails a week with that.

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A week A week and I'm just like, wow, Like, and when I was growing up, that was one of the most offensive things that you can say to a woman, and I know that some of the queer community is like you know.

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We're bringing it back.

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We're reclaiming it, whatever but um, it's still, like in context, a very derogatory thing to say oh, yeah, and it's wild to me, because I really think that, like if we were considered human beings, that this behavior would calm down.

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Yeah, it's also interesting, brian, because I mean we like when we work with school, like some of the schools that we've worked with, and the way in which and even not like even when we were teachers like hearing the way some teachers talk about their students oh my gosh.

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But then also, like I know, when I in my like master's degree program, working with other aspiring and like people who are administrators already but like getting their master's degree, like the way that, like teachers were spoken about in the same way, like this us versus them, like you know, they're like down there.

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And then also hearing the way people at the district level talk about principals and and and teachers.

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It's, it's patriarchal, but it's like.

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It is this like cycle of like, um, oh my god, what is it?

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When it's like people who are oppressed, right when you like, for when you like, punching down that's what it is.

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Oh, you're like literally right um, which is like terrible because right there's, there's someone who's like punching you, so you're like punching the people below you who have less power, but ultimately it's like no one feels respected.

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Right, yeah, right.

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And yeah, the people like at the center are like ultimately getting the worst of it, which is like the kids, the students are the ones who again, like, are affected by all the policy, are affected by the, the revolving door of and the like lack of retention right, I'm sick.

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They don't have any power in this, in what happens or in any situation.

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And then we like and then it's like, oh, but learning loss and like all these other things, and it's just like come on, people Like wow.

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Yep, I learning loss that can go right up there with self-care, uh as far as educational buzzwords that don't need to be said anymore.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I remember that being the thing that so many educators and and like parents and caregivers were worried about when COVID first started.

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Like that fall.

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Oh, the learning loss, oh yes.

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And I was like can we talk about the like?

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I remember saying to parents so was a the virtual teacher.

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And I said to families like I am more concerned if your child is enjoying themselves.

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And they were like yes, yes, that's great, but learning loss.

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And I I couldn't get over, like as a as a parent myself, like I I really am like is my child feeling good?

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and safe when they go to school?

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Yeah, are they, do they?

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Can they get their needs met, you know?

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And like they're learning, that's great.

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But like that whole idea, I was like where are they going?

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Like they're in fifth grade, can we relax Like they're?

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also like not going to learn if they feel stressed they're not that part, that part.

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Literally like neuroscience people.

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Let's be real, um, but science goes out the window, right, yeah, right but that's where, like, the inclusion piece that, like, we are so passionate about, comes in, because when you are inclusive, you are paying attention to the whole person.

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You're not just thinking about, like did you do your homework right?

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It's like, okay, well, what's going on?

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How do you feel like you're fully just thinking about, like did you do your homework right?

00:27:05.419 --> 00:27:06.598
It's like, okay, well, what's going on?

00:27:06.598 --> 00:27:09.125
How do you feel like you're fully involved?

00:27:09.125 --> 00:27:09.827
All of you.

00:27:09.827 --> 00:27:24.386
You can be raggedy, like we were saying, you know, and it's not that much extra work to like open a space, to like allow people to be themselves well, you for you, for for some people it's not.

00:27:24.547 --> 00:27:30.115
OK, right, because that again like that means you have to have like the self-awareness.

00:27:30.901 --> 00:27:39.714
You need to have like the emotional capacity not the emotional capacity, but like, literally, the emotional intelligence to like whoop, like something's off.

00:27:39.815 --> 00:28:06.420
Right, no-transcript.

00:28:06.420 --> 00:28:07.803
Like what are the issues?

00:28:07.803 --> 00:28:15.489
Like working with teachers, working with administrators, because like it is solvable, it's absolute.

00:28:15.489 --> 00:28:23.249
Like teacher retention and especially like with Black teachers, with queer teachers, with disabled, disabled teachers.

00:28:23.249 --> 00:28:33.221
Like there are actual strategies to retain teachers and yet, like every week there's like a new article like oh my god, teachers are leaving the field.

00:28:33.221 --> 00:28:48.018
It's like I mean again, nobody's refusing to actually invest the resources, aka the money, to do what needs to be done to keep your teachers and um, yeah, it's just like that refusal.

00:28:48.118 --> 00:28:52.146
So, yeah, like it's yeah, the like tip of the iceberg.

00:28:52.146 --> 00:28:55.513
Like, oh, there's like a massage chair person.

00:28:55.513 --> 00:29:03.890
Like, yeah, we're like, oh my god, yeah, no, the cafeteria no, but like, which is a thing we've seen?

00:29:04.590 --> 00:29:04.671
um.

00:29:04.671 --> 00:29:05.491
Are you serious?

00:29:05.491 --> 00:29:36.528
Oh my god, no, it's in the teacher's oh, okay but you know I definitely think it was yikes, you know that does not sound relaxing at all, though, like these children like screaming and you're in a massage chair or the airport like the person who's giving you a massage in the chair, not the massage chair in a teacher's lounge Not terrible but absolutely not terrible.

00:29:37.560 --> 00:29:41.893
And like get a massage from this person in the middle of the cafeteria.

00:29:41.893 --> 00:29:44.701
So thank you so much for this.

00:29:44.701 --> 00:29:45.642
Like I love.

00:29:45.642 --> 00:29:49.384
I love feeling like this while, like 17 year olds are walking past.

00:29:49.464 --> 00:29:50.746
Yeah, in the middle of the cafeteria.

00:29:50.766 --> 00:29:51.526
So thank you so much for this.

00:29:51.605 --> 00:29:54.167
Like I love feeling like this while, like 17-year-olds are walking past.

00:29:54.208 --> 00:29:54.428
Yeah, yeah.

00:29:54.428 --> 00:29:56.288
Or a $20 bag of candy, yeah yeah.

00:29:56.288 --> 00:30:00.432
Or my favorite was, like it's the holidays, congratulations.

00:30:00.432 --> 00:30:03.013
We gave you this cup with some Hershey's Kisses in it.

00:30:03.013 --> 00:30:04.315
Have a great day.

00:30:04.315 --> 00:30:08.077
I'm like okay, why is everything related to food?

00:30:08.077 --> 00:30:15.172
That's what I want to like as a person who has body dysmorphia because of my weight.

00:30:15.172 --> 00:30:17.942
Why does everything for a teacher come down to?

00:30:17.942 --> 00:30:21.471
We bought you pizza and we gave you candies and cookies.

00:30:21.471 --> 00:30:25.973
Yeah, like, that's literally the archetypal.

00:30:25.973 --> 00:30:31.965
I'm going to give you this apple and, while the apple might be healthy, like it's still food Like, why does?

00:30:32.027 --> 00:30:33.872
everything center on food for teachers.

00:30:34.453 --> 00:30:35.195
You know what's interesting?

00:30:35.195 --> 00:30:38.894
That's what a lot of teachers do for kids too.

00:30:38.894 --> 00:30:41.534
It's like if you do this, we'll get a pizza party.

00:30:41.534 --> 00:30:44.653
So it's almost like they're like oh well, it works for the kids.

00:30:45.907 --> 00:30:47.173
So do it for the teachers.

00:30:47.173 --> 00:30:57.990
It's funny my nine-year-old came home all excited because they had a donut party, because they, you know, had the highest rate of improvement on you know, whatever test they were taking, and I was like cool.

00:30:59.291 --> 00:30:59.712
Yeah.

00:30:59.834 --> 00:31:01.557
Donut party, wow yeah.

00:31:02.077 --> 00:31:04.865
Yes, yeah.

00:31:06.252 --> 00:31:07.438
Donut party.

00:31:07.438 --> 00:31:08.020
Wow, yes, yeah.

00:31:08.020 --> 00:31:15.627
So we've talked about this.

00:31:15.627 --> 00:31:25.148
You know, punching down kind of feeling when it comes to the general educational community and lots of people are leaving the field but lots of people are also joining the field Not at the same rates, obviously, Otherwise there wouldn't be a quote unquote shortage.

00:31:25.148 --> 00:31:27.794
There's not a shortage.

00:31:27.794 --> 00:31:29.959
You just don't want to pay people and treat them well.

00:31:32.287 --> 00:31:37.173
Yeah, people are just refusing, yeah they don't want to be punching bags.

00:31:37.173 --> 00:31:37.614
It's wild.

00:31:37.614 --> 00:32:18.759
It's wild when that happens, but if you were talking to someone who was just hopping into the classroom and they're a queer educator and given you know the turbulent times, that question reminds me of the time we um spoke to like literally uh, a group of um like uh student teachers.

00:32:20.246 --> 00:32:21.067
Oh yeah.

00:32:21.067 --> 00:32:26.318
And we were like basically like explaining.

00:32:26.318 --> 00:33:03.325
Our goal was to like help contextualize and to bring to I guess there's so much like there, like there's so much societal, like misinformation and disinformation about what it means to be a teacher, um, and so we were like hoping to be just like another touch point, to like inject some realism into, into some folks right who are like working towards becoming teachers.

00:33:03.749 --> 00:33:35.733
And and one of the people was like it sounds pretty terrible and he said it sounds like you're trying to scare us from going into the field Cause we were also giving them tips about like when this happened, like scenarios like if this thing happens, make sure you know who the administrator is that does X, y, z so so that, like you, can actually try to get your needs met right, you know, but we were trying to be as honest as we could and yeah and he, he did not, he did not like yeah and well, I don't.

00:33:36.015 --> 00:33:47.278
I don't know if I want to assume that he didn't like it I think it was just like sorry, no yeah, I think it was just like, oh, like this is very much darker, or I don't know.

00:33:47.278 --> 00:33:51.269
Like just hearing him say that, I was like oh yeah, we're not.

00:33:51.269 --> 00:33:54.938
The intention is not to scare you again, it's to like, prepare you.

00:33:54.938 --> 00:33:59.631
So yeah, did you want to dive in?

00:34:00.051 --> 00:34:03.618
Yeah, I think this is a great question.

00:34:03.618 --> 00:34:04.898
Yeah, I think this is a great question.

00:34:04.898 --> 00:34:09.039
I think it's something that even teachers who are just like switching schools should think about too.

00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:10.860
You know it's like how?

00:34:12.161 --> 00:34:17.181
Yeah, it's essentially like, how do you gauge the environment Right, how do you gauge the culture?

00:34:17.181 --> 00:34:23.083
Because, like in an interview, you might get one vibe, but then it might be totally different.

00:34:23.083 --> 00:34:37.467
And so, like, um, I would say like, yeah, use your judgment, take a little time to get to know the ecosystem of the school so that you can determine how safe you feel.

00:34:37.467 --> 00:35:04.460
You know, um, one thing that I did to to you know, when I started at the school where we taught together, was I got a ton of posters and postcards that I mostly postcards to show like that showed like my value of inclusion and how, like I wanted it to, I wanted people to like get the feeling when they came into the room that like, oh and I?

00:35:04.621 --> 00:35:22.175
you know, I had like safe space posters and things like that and I knew who was safe based on who would walk, cause I also had some on the door who would walk past and say like, oh my gosh, I love your posters, thank you for having these up.

00:35:22.175 --> 00:35:35.557
You know, whatever, whether it was a parent, a child administrator, teacher, right but I would also have and this was mostly from other teachers who would come in and say I don't know why you want to advertise all of this.

00:35:35.557 --> 00:35:42.545
I would take that down, I would take this down and I was like so that person's not safe, you know.

00:35:42.606 --> 00:35:47.737
And those were the same teachers that would come in and like talk badly about kids.

00:35:47.737 --> 00:35:50.963
Um, and so it was good, that way I could learn like.

00:35:50.963 --> 00:35:52.487
All right, I don't talk to that person.

00:35:52.487 --> 00:36:00.391
And so it was like an easy way to kind of like show, try and like be authentic within my space.

00:36:00.931 --> 00:36:46.195
Um, and then know once I was out of my classroom, like who, who, I could be safe around yeah, it's like an implicit way, yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I I think something that I began to do, um, as I got more, as I became more like comfortable with my own values as a teacher, like I remember when, uh, I was a student teacher and we had to write like an educational philosophy, right, and that was very much just like a regurgitation of, like, all the education philosophers that I had, just that I had learned about, right, I'm like I'm not skiing and Pet and like blah blah blah Right.

00:36:46.646 --> 00:37:06.211
But, like, as I began to really and this was also coupled with me learning more about myself Like I I was like, yeah, those two journeys like Gab discovery and Gab and Gab being like Ms Sussman were just kind of like together.

00:37:06.211 --> 00:37:25.056
I began, like, when it came time to interview and to talk to people, I wanted people to know who I was, because I ultimately wanted to, I wanted to be who I was.

00:37:25.056 --> 00:37:29.068
So like I want to be who I am in all facets of my life.

00:37:29.068 --> 00:37:30.893
Right, I don't want to compartmentalize.

00:37:30.893 --> 00:37:39.195
I don't want to be this kind of person at home, this kind of person at work and at school.

00:37:39.195 --> 00:37:47.155
Right, it's like I don't want to be this kind of person with my students and this kind of person with my colleagues and this kind of person with my boss.

00:37:47.155 --> 00:37:50.300
Right, like, I want people to know who I am.

00:37:52.045 --> 00:37:56.454
Like and I am one person like I believe my beliefs.

00:37:56.454 --> 00:38:25.351
Like how I move through the world is how I want to move through every space that I'm in, and so I was really intentional about like, taking that, taking that risk honestly and just being really clear about like yeah, I actually use they pronouns and, um, I remember I started, I adopted like they pronouns mid year like and a lot like just kind of was.

00:38:26.313 --> 00:38:57.804
I came out to my, my students were the first group of people I came out to as non-binary and I I would say, like as a first-year teacher or someone who's aspiring to be a teacher, to like really it's, it's absolutely attainable to find a school that accepts you for who you are and that like stupid, like idiom of like you gotta kiss a lot of browns to get your prince or princess right, is that the thing?

00:38:57.804 --> 00:38:59.710
Or you gotta try on long shoes.

00:38:59.931 --> 00:39:02.952
I don't know, there can be trial and error.

00:39:03.052 --> 00:39:31.333
Right, and obviously I'm saying trial and error with like schmoozing over the part that's like maybe trauma, maybe pain like you know this, like breaking up with the school, leaving mid-year, like those things are real, they happen to a lot of us and often, like, if you are in a space that truly accepts who you are, that is going to allow you to be successful, happier, it's going to benefit everyone, right.

00:39:31.333 --> 00:39:55.719
Like the schools students deserve to have, like dope, queer, bipoc, disabled, you know, like all, all like marginalized teachers who represent their marginalized identities, and oftentimes we are the we are like in the revolving door and that sends a message to students.

00:39:55.719 --> 00:40:04.818
And so, ultimately, like, if you are not in a safe environment, like don't feel like you have to stay for the students.

00:40:04.818 --> 00:40:12.257
Like you need to prioritize your like how you feel in that environment.

00:40:12.697 --> 00:40:50.190
Um, and like, we know so many people who, like, are different in at work, like they aren't out to their students, and even like high school teachers, like middle school teachers, and like we also know early childhood, elementary students, elementary teachers that are out to their students, like it's, you can absolutely be out to any age kid, right, but you're just going to be like happier and more successful if you really try to lean in, to showing up authentically.

00:40:50.190 --> 00:40:53.436
Um, it's gonna take, it might take time and that's fine.

00:40:53.436 --> 00:40:59.414
It's just like if I can empower people to have that as a goal like to work towards.

00:40:59.876 --> 00:41:08.309
Would love to see more of that yeah, absolutely, and I think that collectively you guys have made it a point about.

00:41:08.309 --> 00:41:13.827
It starts with interview, it starts with research, but then it also starts the first day you're on campus.

00:41:13.827 --> 00:41:35.498
You know, it's almost like each step that you're taking is a new evaluation of what the space is like in the environment you're going through, and I agree with you in I understand that when times are hard, it might feel like you have to stay someplace because you can't afford to go elsewhere.

00:41:36.925 --> 00:41:55.898
But I also want to say that it will be much better for you to look while you are trudging along, because you can always look for something better, even if you're dealing with what you currently have.

00:41:56.485 --> 00:41:58.648
Absolutely, yes, absolutely.

00:41:58.648 --> 00:42:11.036
And that's that is also like, again, we I was in that situation where I was like I really like you to go somewhere else and but then you work 65 hours a week, like you know.

00:42:11.036 --> 00:42:31.030
It's like you're tired, like you have papers to grade, you like have all the things, you're worried if your school is going to catch wind, that you're looking like all the things and it's like, look at like all the things and it's like, yeah, like it really it's worth the investment.

00:42:31.030 --> 00:42:31.351
Um, it really is.

00:42:31.351 --> 00:42:32.492
And also like what we love.

00:42:32.492 --> 00:42:48.514
What we love about our work is that we get to have, um, we host a monthly series for anybody who works with kids, um, and we have free food or anybody who works with kids, and we have free food, free drinks, and it's a great way to break out of that silo.

00:42:48.835 --> 00:42:59.556
So, often like when you're working in a school, like your friends are teachers because they have the same schedule, right Like you might go out for drinks after work.

00:42:59.556 --> 00:43:02.514
You end up getting really close to your colleagues.

00:43:02.514 --> 00:43:11.978
But you may not know your counterpart Right If you teach third grade like the third grade teacher literally in the school a block from you.

00:43:12.085 --> 00:43:18.530
Right or like even outside of your, your, your grade band or your grade level.

00:43:19.130 --> 00:43:38.085
Encouraging folks to branch out and try to really break out of that silo and meet other people will also help with just getting leads on other things Right, like being a teacher, as I mean, we're not like career changer, like we're no longer in class, we're still educators.

00:43:38.827 --> 00:44:12.115
But what we have noticed is that, I mean, if a lot of people love to hire teachers because teachers are doing a lot, we have to be hella organized, we have to be good communicators where we can like multitask Right and so oftentimes, like there are other education adjacent or teacher adjacent roles at other organizations that you may not have like even realized, like oh, I, this is interesting, maybe I'll try this for a little bit.

00:44:12.115 --> 00:44:20.585
You know, like yeah, and so like also just trying to like wade through that and like hold space for yourself.

00:44:20.585 --> 00:44:35.268
But also it can be really easy, as you said, brian, to like feel stuck and then just like, okay, I'll just sign my contract or I'll just see where they put me and oh, I hate that.

00:44:35.268 --> 00:44:52.494
You know, like if you get moved but then you never do anything about it, try to prioritize yourself and and give yourself like that, that opportunity to find something that will make you a little bit happier right, absolutely breathing room.

00:44:52.855 --> 00:45:15.277
I think the other thing that can cause the stuck feeling is like the guilt of thinking about like oh, but if I leave, and I think there is something that go that like is like maybe programmed into teachers to believe that like oh, if we leave, like oh, my gosh who will they have to do right?

00:45:15.697 --> 00:46:01.896
and that like leaving in some ways, like, if you think about it, like the burnt out teachers who've been there for so long and they're just mean, you know, like they stayed too long and now they, just now they maybe they started their career loving kids or tolerating that you know, and now they're like just angry you know, that the kids have questions that are like normal questions, you know, and I think about that that it's like if you're worried that you leaving mid year could be traumatic like it might be for some kids they might really miss you, but like also you staying and like burning yourself to a crisp is not good for you but it's also really not good for the kids.

00:46:02.056 --> 00:46:04.126
Cause, like they'll know, you're going to snap more often.

00:46:04.126 --> 00:46:05.344
You're going to because, like they'll know, you're gonna snap more often.

00:46:05.344 --> 00:46:05.847
You're gonna.

00:46:05.847 --> 00:46:11.791
You know, unless you're I don't know, I don't know, I don't know like yeah, we've seen it, yeah, and it's just like it's not.

00:46:12.835 --> 00:46:15.523
I just I think that's probably worse I don't know.

00:46:15.523 --> 00:46:35.835
I mean, everyone has their own gauge, but, um, I think the myth of like you're the only one who can help them is like it's not fair to anybody, you know yeah, no, absolutely not yeah, and kids will like you can still keep in touch with yes that part we I'm still in touch with like students.

00:46:35.894 --> 00:46:44.614
I've talked many, many years ago yeah and it's so sweet, like when you leave, like, yeah, you can always share your email, like it's.

00:46:44.614 --> 00:46:47.188
It's not like you'll never see them again.

00:46:47.188 --> 00:46:57.675
Maybe some you won't, but like, ultimately, like the kids who want to keep in touch with you can have that agency and, um, yeah, it's just like.

00:46:57.675 --> 00:47:02.913
And also another one last thing to add kids are great everywhere.

00:47:02.913 --> 00:47:15.909
I like, and just because the school that we worked at like they did a really interesting job convincing us that, like our students are amazing, they are unlike anywhere else.

00:47:15.909 --> 00:47:25.516
And I do remember like I worked at this school right after I had moved and I remember being like, oh my god, these kids are like a little bit more vibrant.

00:47:25.516 --> 00:47:25.925
I don't know.

00:47:25.925 --> 00:47:29.313
There's like something different about them and I mean they were great.

00:47:29.313 --> 00:47:31.186
I love those students.

00:47:31.186 --> 00:47:36.125
And, like, we work with many schools across the city and we love every group of students.

00:47:36.144 --> 00:47:38.891
They're all adorable and fearless and wonderful.

00:47:39.092 --> 00:48:15.409
Yeah, and so like, if you leave, like I think there's just like all of these layers that are put on teachers to keep them stuck, like to keep us stuck Right, and pushing back against that, like it's very much like it needs to be an intentional disruption out of the pattern of you, like literally, just like falling asleep every night on the couch right and you're like I could have like updated my resume, but like no, like pry those eyeballs open, like give it one last look.

00:48:15.409 --> 00:48:21.018
Yeah, just like, yeah, just it takes that intentional, like effort.

00:48:21.018 --> 00:48:23.168
But absolutely.

00:48:23.931 --> 00:48:41.978
there's something that you were saying and it got me thinking about how, like, educational structure is very much built on like patriotism and nationalism, and it's that idea of like, why do we have mascots to get everybody behind the school?

00:48:41.978 --> 00:48:58.628
And this is our school, and so that's why we have the most amazing kids, and our kids here are special, and not only do they convince the teachers of that, but they try to convince the children of that and that we're better than the people down the street and it's just I.

00:48:58.628 --> 00:49:04.117
I feel like I read an article on this about a year ago, but don't quote me on that.

00:49:04.117 --> 00:49:25.570
Maybe it was a meme, who knows, but the idea is still lingering in my brain about how, how, how education is set up in a way for to try to convince people that, like you, are better than other people you are better than other people.

00:49:25.590 --> 00:49:27.635
Yeah, it's ultra competitive in that way.

00:49:27.635 --> 00:49:28.175
Yeah.

00:49:28.898 --> 00:50:03.380
And and also to to um the way in which it also like disempowers families, like we've also in school that we've taught at like like schools, some schools like don't want to teach all learners um, and so, for whatever reason, they'll um right like identify like these, this is our niche, right, or these are the students we can serve.

00:50:03.460 --> 00:50:22.355
Well, anybody outside of that um, they either have to put up with it um get their needs met elsewhere through tutoring, through support groups, through whatever um, or right like maybe leave um, but how disempowering that is for queer youth.

00:50:24.257 --> 00:50:46.958
And it's especially like when it comes to bullying, when it comes to just yeah, like I'm thinking of situations where, like kids are just bullied to the point where they have to leave that school or they their learning needs are just not being met at all and have to leave that school.

00:50:47.125 --> 00:51:00.567
And it's like and to to your poor brian about like that, like well, like you just didn't fit in and it's like no, the point is, is that like, especially in public education, what are we talking about fitting in?

00:51:00.567 --> 00:51:01.748
Like this?

00:51:01.748 --> 00:51:06.985
I mean again history of public education holding space for that.

00:51:06.985 --> 00:51:25.221
But yeah, also like public education is for the public, like we can't, and that's why there are laws in place saying that you can't discriminate or you can't not tend to the needs of these kids, right, um?

00:51:25.221 --> 00:51:33.735
But, yeah, schools will like the mental gymnastics or the districts, right Um, that will happen.

00:51:33.735 --> 00:51:50.880
Uh, in order to do that, um, and we're in Maryland and, uh, in Baltimore city, um, there, like a system that's called school choice for high school and that's like a whole and middle school and middle, thank you.

00:51:50.900 --> 00:51:52.202
That's a whole mess.

00:51:52.202 --> 00:52:14.376
You know charter school system, like that's a whole other podcast, but like ultimately it just ends up being this, ends up being the mess that exists today yeah, I'm thinking about doing a summer school session of this podcast, where we pick topics and just have people talk about them.

00:52:14.565 --> 00:52:24.954
So one is going to be like charter schools and the other one is going to be about, you know, teacher self-care like from a teacher perspective what do you need?

00:52:25.476 --> 00:52:27.079
Yeah, oh love that.

00:52:27.204 --> 00:52:30.605
So, so I'll I'll let you know if we get to charter schools, oh, absolutely.

00:52:30.605 --> 00:52:32.489
Because that is definitely a.

00:52:32.489 --> 00:52:32.871
Thing.

00:52:33.211 --> 00:52:33.753
Absolutely.

00:52:34.215 --> 00:52:38.233
Yeah, and not to mention like voucher programs and stuff like that.

00:52:38.273 --> 00:52:38.815
There's a lot yeah.

00:52:39.826 --> 00:52:40.670
Academic policy.

00:52:40.670 --> 00:52:44.300
We'll just start there.

00:52:44.300 --> 00:52:50.396
Final question for you all before we wrap up the interview is thinking about all the things we've talked about.

00:52:50.396 --> 00:52:57.315
I mean, we still have a love of education and a love for educating students.

00:52:57.315 --> 00:53:04.753
However, the educational system and the school communities are very toxic.

00:53:04.753 --> 00:53:12.695
So what are some things that you think that the school's communities can do to be more inclusive of LGBTQIA plus folks?

00:53:14.217 --> 00:53:22.253
Something that we've seen, that has been really impactful, that we've been a part of, is engaging all stakeholders.

00:53:22.253 --> 00:53:25.157
Yeah, um it.

00:53:25.157 --> 00:53:26.681
It is so important.

00:53:26.681 --> 00:53:35.155
Like again, this is like a, this is about the students, but this does not mean that only the students get the lessons.

00:53:35.155 --> 00:53:59.460
On queerness, right, like teachers need to be trained, administrators and staff need to be trained, families need to be trained, and it needs to come from this, like this lens of well, like if we are a community that cares about each other.

00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:11.027
We know that this, like research shows that this population experiences school in this very oppressive, violent way.

00:54:11.027 --> 00:54:13.572
And like we need to do better as a community.

00:54:13.572 --> 00:54:18.606
Right and like take it back from the patriotism.

00:54:18.606 --> 00:54:21.570
Like rah, rah, go tigers.

00:54:21.570 --> 00:54:33.126
It's like we are community, we care about each other and we do that by right, like showing up, by doing the learning, by asking the hard questions, by like holding each other accountable.

00:54:33.226 --> 00:54:37.675
So we need to make sure that there is work done at every stakeholder level.

00:54:37.675 --> 00:55:01.186
Um, and if you're going to make students sit through assemblies, then you need to make the teachers sit through the, through the faculty meetings, then you need to make the parents sit through the parent meetings, like I, like we see it, where I mean we've worked with schools that when they're like what do we do, how do we?

00:55:01.186 --> 00:55:10.635
And we're like needs to be a comprehensive, like support, right, we support all stakeholders and they're like, but can we prioritize the students?

00:55:10.635 --> 00:55:26.626
And then and like, yeah, I mean sure, and like everybody, all the other adults aren't held accountable, don't have the same type of experience or learning, and therefore like, how far is the needle moving?

00:55:26.626 --> 00:55:28.009
And it's not.

00:55:28.009 --> 00:55:29.231
The thing is, it's not right?

00:55:29.231 --> 00:55:42.168
Um, it's like the whole house is on fire, but let's spray water into that one window one window right there, right, and it's like no, that's not actually going to put out the fire.

00:55:44.530 --> 00:55:53.701
So really making sure that we are it takes like obviously intentional work, takes a lot of effort.

00:55:53.701 --> 00:56:15.793
But oftentimes, like schools want to bring the community together, they want people to be engaged, and it can feel challenging to again like make families show up for something or, you know, like have conversations, especially about like serving queer students.

00:56:15.793 --> 00:56:24.617
Depending on the school, the state that you're in, like even saying that might literally get someone fired.

00:56:24.617 --> 00:56:38.543
And I mean in Maryland, like like there, yeah, and so we just need to again think about like we really care about our community.

00:56:38.543 --> 00:57:01.590
And again, research shows that these students are like dying by suicide at a higher rate, are actually not performing as well academically as like other, as the mainstream, as like um, privileged students right like that we need to really sit with that and like do something about it yeah, the.

00:57:01.751 --> 00:57:14.577
The other piece I think about is, like many schools have mission statements and a lot of times these mission statements like sometimes it's just a word salad right.

00:57:14.577 --> 00:57:22.978
And other times it's like it actually makes sense and has substance to it right.

00:57:22.978 --> 00:57:28.655
And so when a school has a mission statement, if there's anything in there, that, why is that?

00:57:28.655 --> 00:57:28.954
I?

00:57:29.416 --> 00:57:30.277
don't know my face.

00:57:30.277 --> 00:57:30.838
I don't know.

00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:31.318
Sorry.

00:57:31.425 --> 00:57:32.891
I was just like, did I do something?

00:57:33.565 --> 00:57:42.255
For those of you who are at home not being able to experience this because you're not watching it there is a random thumbs up that is appearing on the screen.

00:57:42.255 --> 00:57:51.867
Random thumbs up that is appearing on the screen.

00:57:51.867 --> 00:57:54.353
It is super fun, but nobody knows where it came from.

00:57:54.652 --> 00:57:56.717
Um, but yeah, but so like I.

00:57:56.717 --> 00:58:19.306
I think about how, like using someone's words against them, right, like so, these schools that are like we value all kinds of learners, right, but then they really only want neurotypical learners right or like we value all kinds of people, but yet every single year, they literally like with pitchforks, like, chase out strong black female educators.

00:58:19.385 --> 00:58:30.496
Right, like we're just like strong black and brown educators period, right, like, if they have that, you just remind like, oh, but it says this.

00:58:30.496 --> 00:58:31.478
Like, so is that?

00:58:31.478 --> 00:58:38.306
Oh, I thought you valued all kinds of learners, so then why can't this child get an accommodate you?

00:58:38.306 --> 00:58:42.652
Know or like why isn't this teacher allowed to?

00:58:42.652 --> 00:58:55.989
Share this book with their class or whatever it might be, and like it really boils down to one of our favorite phrases, which is walking the talk, these places they love to.

00:58:57.431 --> 00:58:58.914
Yeah, right, whether it's in writing.

00:58:58.914 --> 00:59:02.231
Yeah, have pictures on the website.

00:59:02.231 --> 00:59:02.472
Yeah.

00:59:02.965 --> 00:59:04.614
Drone video of like yeah.

00:59:04.614 --> 00:59:06.242
Have pictures on the website yeah.

00:59:06.242 --> 00:59:06.905
Drone video of like yeah.

00:59:06.905 --> 00:59:15.760
I think about how there's so many times where like something will get shut down yeah Right.

00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:23.318
Or or an event will get like very minimized because it upset an adult, right.

00:59:23.858 --> 00:59:51.938
One adult, usually One adult who made noise right, and I think about like, why don't, like many of us do, like we did this when we were at these schools like using their words against them, but like, if you're going to say you do this, you have to do this, say you do this, you have to do this, even if you have this angry lady or man or whoever person right over here who's like hey, I don't like it.

00:59:51.938 --> 00:59:52.641
It makes me feel uncomfortable.

00:59:52.641 --> 00:59:55.471
Like do it, you have to do it, because you said you're doing it.

00:59:55.471 --> 00:59:58.719
And like it's this fear of like.

00:59:58.719 --> 01:00:01.887
I guess it's the bottom line, right, they're worried they're gonna lose.

01:00:01.887 --> 01:00:02.949
They're worried they're going to lose money.

01:00:02.949 --> 01:00:04.873
They're worried they're going to lose funding.

01:00:04.873 --> 01:00:06.315
You know from like.

01:00:06.777 --> 01:00:07.659
Foundations.

01:00:07.659 --> 01:00:09.269

Cultivating a New Era of Inclusive Education with Bmore Transformed

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